failing to gain mass

[Bill Köhntopp]

Hey guys, some information before:

 

24 years, male

1,84m

72kg

 

my "problem" is, that i tried often to gain mass, also over longer periods of time.

But it never worked pretty good. Have to say i'm this kind of guy, you call in general hardgainer.

I was lean my whole life and thats pretty nice, i look like i'm doing sports, well..but after the years thats just not enough for me.

My last try i gained some mass, but i had an daily intake of about 4,500-5000 calories, couldn't keep it up, just too much after 2 month. But i gained to 78kg, my highscore! And i was still lean, but anyway...i ate a lot stuff with carbs, a lot of sugar.

 

But i want to start again, so now i have a regular life again(semester holidays!) and can sleep a lot and do sports, if i want. So perfect requirements

 

I read a lot about nutrition, in this forum too. i eat "cleaner" than before, means for a year, but i couldn't figured out what i m doing wrong.

 

Right now my daily nutrition goes like this:

 

Breakfast: cal: 568   carbs: 79   protein: 19   fat: 19

 

cereals

extra oats

milk 3,5%

cocoa

 

midday : cal: 650   carbs: 89   protein: 31   fat: 14

 

whole-grain rice

maize

kidneybeans

tomatosauce

feta cheese

paprika

 

Dinner: cal: 726   carbs: 53  protein: 21   fat: 45

 

bread

salami

butter

 

over the day: cal: 514   carbs: 60  protein: 13   fat: 27

 

banana

cashews

orange

 

Shake       cal: 440   carbs: 40  protein: 64   fat: 3

500g low fat curd cheese

oats

honey

 

result:

cal: 2898

carbs: 321

protein: 148

fat: 99

 

I know its not that much intake, but this is what i can say is really the minimum i eat -> my starting point

What about the composition of the nutrition?

of course i am not eating rice-pan everyday

i try to get this intake also on non-training days, i'm doing 2-3 F7 + 2x HS plus running twice in a week.

 

(want to have this thread, to look back and see where i started to tune my nutrition over time and to get your help if necessary)

 

William

[Jukka Mäkitalo]

What are your goals, just do gymnastic stuff or also bodyweight/barbell training? You're vegeterian? Well there's salami on the menu but thats only meat I saw on the list. People are different and by the looks of it your body can handle excess amount of carbs without storing them also most of the protein is coming from veggies maybe in your case not ideal choice.

 

If you're not gaining weight it more or less means that you are not training properly. For me at least GST is more about strenght it's not really hypertrofy program. Yes strength gains will yield also muscle gains but not so much.

 

For that you would need to add either bodyweight training or go to gym 2-3 times a week preferably full body workout (overhead press, bench press, chin/pull up, rows, SQUATs and deadlift at least) separate time/date than GST. Aim for 3-5 sets with 8-12 rep for each move and increase TUT (time under tension) by having 3-4sec excentric phase. So lets say you do push ups 3 sets with 10 repetitions, each time you lower you body do it slowly taking 3-4sec and then fast up. Once you can do the sets change to harder variation (easier with barbels).

 

After training I would take protein shake with carbs (30-60g protein and 30-50g carbs) and meal after training having lots of protein and carbs from potatoes, rice, etc.

 

That should be least a start, you just need to tell your body to grow muscle and then fuel it properly.

[Colin Bean]

Seems to be a lack of vegetables in here, any reason why?

 

If you do need to consume a lot of calories then I would suggest having a proper breakfast (eggs, butter, bacon, spinach etc) rather than the cereal and a much bigger dinner (some sort of meat protein, chicken/beef not avoiding the fatty cuts with potatoes and vegetables).

 

Personally, I'd stick to 3 main big meals (1000+ cal) and then throw in some snacks in between if needed.

 

The overall ratio of macro's seems ok.

[Aaro Helander]

If you've been able to gain mass and staying lean while eating up to 5000 kcal per day, then what on earth are you doing eating below 3000 and trying to gain mass? 

 

Hard to tell without seeing your workouts, but my personal opinion is that usually the problem is as much to do with training as it is to do with nutrition.

[TrojanHorse]

UP YOUR PROTEIN

[Edoardo Roberto Cagnola]

UP YOUR PROTEIN

Completely unnecessary. When trying to gain mass total calories intake and the amount of carbs that you eat are far more important than your protein intake. If you're getting 0.8 g of protein per pound of bodyweight, you are getting more than enough protein (this is not my opinion, that's "science bi**h" ).

My best suggestions would be to start tracking your macros on MyfitnessPal (or similar apps) on a daily basis so that you can have control on everything you eat. Start from there: once you understand how many calories you REALLY need every day it'll be much easier to just up them and gain some weight (hopefully muscle).

For more detailed information Google Alan Aragon, he's the man when it comes to nutrition.

[Aaro Helander]

Completely unnecessary. When trying to gain mass total calories intake and the amount of carbs that you eat are far more important than your protein intake. 

 

 

Agreed. It might be worthwile to experiment with a bit higher protein intake, and getting more of your protein from animal sources, but I doubt it is the protein that's holding you back.

 

Alan Argon is truly the guy to go for scientifically backed up nutritional info. Lyle McDonald (a pal of Argon) is also a great source. Protein quality tends to be mostly irrelevant with the calorie amount of a guy living in the western world. But, as said, it can be a good idea to self-experiment with different amounts.

 

Hodgetwins on Youtube, as an example, get about 100-140 grams of protein per day and they don't seem to have problems getting gains.

 

As EdStand said, it's a good idea to start tracking your stuff in a consistent way to know exactly what you're getting.

[Colin Macdonald]

Change your genetics and take steroids. 

 

You need calories to be active and recover, but lots of extra calories don't mean lots of extra muscle (though you can certainly gain weight doing that, just not the kind you want.)

 

I know that the gospel of bodybuilding says this is heresy, but I feel the need to restate it every once in a while, even if it falls on deaf ears.

[Erik Saarts]

Your height/weight/age gives ~1800kcal as your BMR, add running, GST and hopefully active lifestyle on top of it - means you are probably breaking even, not establishing surplus. Surplus does not have to be huge though. Experiment! I'd add 300-500 kcal to your daily intake and keep an eye on waist circumference.

 

Running might work against anabolic state, if it's done for too long and too fast. You might need more carbs on running days.

 

There's tons of benefits to be gained from sleeping more. If you're not getting enough sleep, forget about muscle gains.

[Bret Kennedy]

Edstand... Carbs do not build muscle. They are the building blocks for fuel. Muscle is made of protein. If you are not meeting a protein requirement that satisfies your training, then you are not going to build muscle...

I'd like to see where people are getting their info that protein isn't important for building muscle, because all of the strength coaches I work with ensure adequate protein for assisting with muscle repair..

[Edoardo Roberto Cagnola]

Please noticed that I did not say ANYTHING that you stated: carbs does not build muscle, protein it's actually important (in the right amount though). If you have doubts about the argument please check the sources of information quoted above (Alan Aragon, Layle McDonald) for more detailed SCIENCE BASED (you can't get around science man) articles about the argument. I link you a video that could be interesting for you: it's about protein intake. Spoiler: gold informations there

[Bret Kennedy]

Firstly, the person asked how he can increase body mass. he weighs in at 72kg, he wants to increase his body mass and 2 people on here are telling him to up his protein, you are are saying 'not necessary'

 

given the video you have just showed me, move to 4.32. His continuam explains what is widely accepted in the strength and conditioning world, maybe a little on the lower side. But for a maintenance you are looking at the .8 -1.2 g/kg.. and then for 'putting on muscle mass' you are looking at the higher rate of '1.4 -2.7' Now this is obviously all relative to each individual, but telling a guy who weighs in at 72kg and wants to 'bulk up' that he doesn't need to increase his protein intake from 148g prot is incorrect. 

 

You also state 'total calorie intake and number of carbs are more important' . This implies that carbs put on muscle mass, but as you agreed they don't. Calorie intake would be important, and timing your carbs to ensure full glyocgen replenishment is also essential, but again you need the extra protein to ensure that the damage you do during your workout is being repaired. This is accomplished by completing a full protein profile, including all 7 BCAA's that are necessary building blocks. 

 

Taking into account that the member asked to increase mass, I would assume that he is going to be doing some substantial weights workouts to accomplish this.

 

William. a 4500 calorie diet does seem to be quite a lot as you stated. If I am not mistaken, you have a carb/prot/fat ratio of  50% carbs, 40% protein, and 10% fats? I might be wrong, but is that what your ratio is?

 

My thoughts on this is that if you took Alan states in the above video at around 6:16, he uses the 'target body mass'. He previously mentioned that to prescribe protein as per 'LBM' that would be ideal. For the training I have done, all of our protein requirements were made on the lean body mass of the individual. 

 

My thoughts finally on this are, I agree with the above statements that you should increase your protein intake, if you are taring muscle, you need to repair it. my thoughts would be increase your protein intake by about 20 to start with, and see how you go. My other thoughts are that your fat intake is a little too low, you can adjust that up and bring your carbs down a little, and be more precise with your timing, ie: in and around your training to help ensure recovery. There is a great post on here about pre/during/post workout nutrition you might want to play with, they say they have actually been able to train hard and have no soreness, which sounds awesome.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts, you are by all means able to throw them in the bin or take advice from other sources.

 

Good luck william  

[Edoardo Roberto Cagnola]

No need to be that anal about protein intake. 10 g ( 40 kcal) difference is not gonna make a huge difference. We can spend hours here discussing what would work better, but the truth is that the OP needs to experiment and get to know his body to find what works for himself.

In regard to the carbs thing, I'm speaking from personal experience: I have to eat 450g of carbs just to maintain my weight (given an intake of 1g of fat per pound of BW and 0.8g of protein per pound of BW).

Not hate on you Bret, just my opinion based on what i know and what I've experienced on my own body.

PS. by the way 72x2=144, so he is well into the 1.4-2.7 range eating 148g of protein.

[Michael Blythe]

Look into your micro-biome and digestive enzymes. You can eat all the food in the house and it's not worth anything if you don't Digest right .

[GoldenEagle]

Considering your height and weight, look into finding out what your body type is first and then look into your nutrient consumption.

 

Personally speaking, I am 1.68m and weigh about 65.32kg my body type is mesomorph. People with one of the other two body types won't be able to add mass in the same manner as I can.

[Daniel Burnham]

Look into your micro-biome and digestive enzymes. You can eat all the food in the house and it's not worth anything if you don't Digest right .

True. But you can look at the toilet to tell you how digestion is going.

[Daniel Burnham]

Also a skinny guy here.  148 pounds at 5'10" body fat is low right now, maybe 9ish percent.  Weight gain is all about eating.  You already showed yourself you can gain.  I prefer adding meals because its easier than trying to shovel more in.  Forget about supplements.  Once you start gaining then maybe you can add them, but it is not a good strategy to use them for your progress.  A tad more protein wouldn't hurt.  At worst its extra calories to aid the cause, at best it really does boost protein synthesis either way you are getting some benefit.  

 

If you are in a rush to gain weight you can set timers throughout the day to eat snacks.  This is a little hardcore for my taste but I have done it in the past to go from 140 to 160 in about 3 months time.  Though to be fair my body fat did go up some.  

[Bill Köhntopp]

Hello to all of you!

Wow, a lot feedback, i appreciate it.

Sorry i couldnt look write here last weeks, but my circum stances changed a lil.

In one month(1th january ) im flying to nepal for 3 month to be part of a team of students, which is building an education-center in short for the people there.

Its part of my architecture studies.

 

So, i had a lot to do for this project, you know....making plans, drawings etc.

 

I want to answer everthing this weekend.

I just read through the whole posts, but i have to take a second try to really understand every english terminus

 

But at least i can say, that i just have one month left to gain some mass before i will go abroad. after speaking to some more experienced students, it sounds like i will loose a lot of weight there, for me thats of course no good thing! have no backup. the food there is mostly some stuff with rice and some sauce, maybe some chicken and i will work nearly everyday on construction area.

 

so maybe this thread helps me more for the time AFTER NEPAL now. 

 

greetz, William

 

Oh and i have the feeling, no proof so far, that when i m increasing my intake a lot, i just cant hold it up for longer, even with small increase, are you sometimes not hungry but still can eat, pushing7forcing yourself to eat? maybe my head is just in the way?

Now i got a cold, and even two weeks after its hard for me to become hungry like i used to be. 

[Bill Köhntopp]

Look into your micro-biome and digestive enzymes. You can eat all the food in the house and it's not worth anything if you don't Digest right .

Yeah like Daniel wrote, how the hell should i have a look into it?

[Michael Blythe]

Yeah like Daniel wrote, how the hell should i have a look into it? [/quote

I got a Comprehensive Stool Analysis for a variety of parasites and a hydrogen breath test for Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) .

I test positive for both and going thru a protocol to try and rid them. But as Daniel said if you got no issues with your bowels your probably ok.

[Srini Duggirala]

Yeah like Daniel wrote, how the hell should i have a look into it? [/quote

I got a Comprehensive Stool Analysis for a variety of parasites and a hydrogen breath test for Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) .

I test positive for both and going thru a protocol to try and rid them. But as Daniel said if you got no issues with your bowels your probably ok.

Nautique,

what lab did you use for your stool test? And what is the protocol you are following? Just curious.

Gut is where it all begins...health or desease. And a diversified gut microbiome is key to everything, including body composition.

At least that is what the latest science says and I am a big believer!

[Daniel Burnham]

Nautique,

what lab did you use for your stool test? And what is the protocol you are following? Just curious.

Gut is where it all begins...health or desease. And a diversified gut microbiome is key to everything, including body composition.

At least that is what the latest science says and I am a big believer!

It is a good area of research. I have attended several lectures at the emory medical school on the topic and evidence is showing many benefits.

There was a guy genome project that i was going to send my stuff off to but got too busy. They were planning on categorizing the data and showing differences between living styles.

[Srini Duggirala]

It is a good area of research. I have attended several lectures at the emory medical school on the topic and evidence is showing many benefits.

There was a guy genome project that i was going to send my stuff off to but got too busy. They were planning on categorizing the data and showing differences between living styles.

Daniel,

I think you are referring to the American Gut project. They have good intentions but execution thus far has been pretty poor with results taking upto 6 months or longer.

 

I had my gut profile tested out about six months ago by a different lab which uses DNA based testing instead of the outdated culture based stool testing. My results were pretty good -outstanding, actually - but then again I did not grow up in USA where the western SAD diet and antibiotics wreak havoc on the gut microbiome.

 

I also had a urine nutritional eval done which gives you a peak into the metabolic pathways (Krebs Cycle). Very fascinating!

 

I am following a protocol, not very diligently I must say, and plan to get tested again to see if there are any improvements. Feel awesome though.

 

The most important thing with restoring the diversity in the gut is a proper blend of various fibers and a lot of it (we are talking 40g+ /day)- as different strains feed on different kinds of fiber.

[Daniel Burnham]

Daniel,

I think you are referring to the American Gut project. They have good intentions but execution thus far has been pretty poor with results taking upto 6 months or longer.

I had my gut profile tested out about six months ago by a different lab which uses DNA based testing instead of the outdated culture based stool testing. My results were pretty good -outstanding, actually - but then again I did not grow up in USA where the western SAD diet and antibiotics wreak havoc on the gut microbiome.

I also had a urine nutritional eval done which gives you a peak into the metabolic pathways (Krebs Cycle). Very fascinating!

I am following a protocol, not very diligently I must say, and plan to get tested again to see if there are any improvements. Feel awesome though.

The most important thing with restoring the diversity in the gut is a proper blend of various fibers and a lot of it (we are talking 40g+ /day)- as different strains feed on different kinds of fiber.

Cool. Please post the results.

I have adopted a gut health regimine which includes fermented foods, resistant starch and a healthy amount of vegetables. In addition I have eliminated things that are harmful. One of the biggest differences is removing artificial sugar. Sucralose wrecks me and it takes over a week to return to normal. I won't go into details but it is clear that the effects are harmful

I would really like to get tested. I may try to enroll in a study emory is doing in the near future.

[Srini Duggirala]

Cool. Please post the results.

I have adopted a gut health regimine which includes fermented foods, resistant starch and a healthy amount of vegetables. In addition I have eliminated things that are harmful. One of the biggest differences is removing artificial sugar. Sucralose wrecks me and it takes over a week to return to normal. I won't go into details but it is clear that the effects are harmful

I would really like to get tested. I may try to enroll in a study emory is doing in the near future.

Daniel,

That's awesome. You are spot on with your diet. Please favor RS3 (cooked and cooled beans, potatoes etc,) over RS2 when it comes to resistant starch. Lightly washed organic vegetables (if possible) will serve dual purpose- nutrients + good bugs. Hope you are fermenting your own vegetables as there are very few good choices at the store...most of them don't have any live cultures. A simple home made kraut with organic veg is 100 times better. And home made yogurt is easy enough to make.

 

Sucralose is poison to the good guys, What bummed me is a recent study (it's only one study but still) implicates even stevia with detrimental effects on the gut bugs. So, I am back to raw honey these days.

 

I will certainly post my results when I get them. Hopefully, I'll send my sample after the holz.