When to train?

I like to experiment. So, i tried many different things. 20-30 days period.

First: 4 days training in a row for 45-60 minutes, then one day break. Repeat..

Second: Morning and evening training for 45 minutes and two days in a row, third day is rest day, repeat..

Third: Train one day, other day resting and so on.

Fourth: Train 20 days without rest, then rest one day. This one was tough

Unbelievable i had similar results after any of these routines.

I would like to know how gymnasts approach training. Should i wait until my muscles recover completely before big training, or, should i train when i'm sore and tired. I need 3 days to completely recover, two days to recover 70%. What do you think? Do you have any advice about weekly training distribution.

Your goal should be to find the minimum effective dose of training.  That is, what is the absolute least you can do to get a positive result.  In your example, if training every day (option 4) and training every other day (option 3) bring similar results, it would be folly to use option 4.  You would be using twice the amount of time to get the same result.  You could those extra days to stretch, develop skills, relax, be with friends, read, play chess, pet a cat, whatever you want, and still see results.  Plus enjoy some other stuff.  And as a bonus, you reduce the risk of injury.

Many people want to train as much as possible, but effective training is about results, not training for training's sake.

What if you prefer training over playing chess?
Train for training's sake if training brings you pleasure.

Because you can overtrain.  It doesn't matter how much you like to train, if you try to do all Foundation work every single day, you will have to stop because of sickness or burnout if you are lucky or injury if you are not.  Half of the training equation is resting enough to allow the training to improve you.  Your training should be based on results.  You train for something.

Half the satisfaction of training is knowing that you are improving yourself.  Tell yourself that on rest days: I'm improving my body.  You can still be active.  You can run, play, sport, do pullups, whatever.  Being active feels great.   But if you're doing pullups to failure every single day, your results will start to suffer.  And that doesn't feel so great.

GORIZONT said:

I would like to know how gymnasts approach training.

As an example, my son is 19 and is on the Swedish national team. He trains 6 days a week and 9-10 times a week. 3-4 morning trains and 6 afternoon trains. Remember though that he build up to this amount of training since he was 7 years old. In the beginning he trained 3 times/days a week.

I get the overtraining part and wouldn't advice that. 

But if he did the 20 days in a row, 1 day off and he still feels great. Why not go for that instead of the lesser work?
The example above has 6 days a week with 9-10 times a week of training, i'm pretty sure they aren't overtraining.

Train as much as you like while doing it intelligently I would say.

I think that Jonathon's point is, is that there are more profitable things to do with one's time other than training without advantage. If one must train, then focus on stretching, mobility, movement, or other skill sets.

It may sound ridicilous to you. I'm obsessed with training, it is more then "love training, enjoy training". My biggest brake from training in past two years is two days, and it happen only twice. Even if i go on vacation with my familiy, i still train as much as i did at home.

I said i had similar results after any of those 4 routines. So with third routine, i don't get sore, but i'm very nervous, it is like my body is going to fall a part if i rest. With fourth routine i'm feeling sore after two days, and it takes 7 days for my muscles to get use to it and then muscle soreness is much smaller, also at first i feel terrible next morning, every single muscle hurts, but as 10 days pass i see progress and i start to feel much better. And i don't get nervous, because i don't rest at all.

So, i compared results from all 4, i made one day brake after all of those, and when i try moves that i have been working towards, i see big improvement with all of them. So when i train two-three days in a row, next day i'm feeling sore and tired, on the other hand, when i rest every other day i don't get sore at all, but after 10 days of training in a row my body gets used to it and i suddenly improve, although during 3-10 days of that routine i feel very tired and sore. Now with third routine, i usually see progress also after 10 days, a have for example 3 planche trainings in 12 days, i see progress on 12-day. With 4 routine i see progress after almost the same amount of time. This is strange...

And one more thing, when i train without rest it is 45-60 minutes a day. When i train with one day rest i train for 90-120 minutes.

GORIZONT said:

It may sound ridicilous to you. I'm obsessed with training, it is more then "love training, enjoy training". My biggest brake from training in past two years is two days, and it happen only twice. Even if i go on vacation with my familiy, i still train as much as i did at home.

I said i had similar results after any of those 4 routines. So with third routine, i don't get sore, but i'm very nervous, it is like my body is going to fall a part if i rest. With fourth routine i'm feeling sore after two days, and it takes 7 days for my muscles to get use to it and then muscle soreness is much smaller, also at first i feel terrible next morning, every single muscle hurts, but as 10 days pass i see progress and i start to feel much better. And i don't get nervous, because i don't rest at all.

So, i compared results from all 4, i made one day brake after all of those, and when i try moves that i have been working towards, i see big improvement with all of them. So when i train two-three days in a row, next day i'm feeling sore and tired, on the other hand, when i rest every other day i don't get sore at all, but after 10 days of training in a row my body gets used to it and i suddenly improve, although during 3-10 days of that routine i feel very tired and sore. Now with third routine, i usually see progress also after 10 days, a have for example 3 planche trainings in 12 days, i see progress on 12-day. With 4 routine i see progress after almost the same amount of time. This is strange...

And one more thing, when i train without rest it is 45-60 minutes a day. When i train with one day rest i train for 90-120 minutes.

Sounds like exercise addiction.

No resting means you are ignoring half the equation. You need to recover and rest and deloads do this. You can be active but shouldn't be doing the same training

In mats example those guys aren't doing strength training 10 times a week. They are honing skills. Most gyms use some type of periodic strength training regimen to give the athletes a break while continuing to train. This is evidenced by most gymnasts not being able to do ring strength more than about twice a week.

I also can't sit still but I don't fill the time training after I have hit my goals. I do something else that is light and enjoyable like kayaking, hiking, and biking.

GORIZONT said:

It may sound ridicilous to you. I'm obsessed with training, it is more then "love training, enjoy training". My biggest brake from training in past two years is two days, and it happen only twice. Even if i go on vacation with my familiy, i still train as much as i did at home.

I said i had similar results after any of those 4 routines. So with third routine, i don't get sore, but i'm very nervous, it is like my body is going to fall a part if i rest. With fourth routine i'm feeling sore after two days, and it takes 7 days for my muscles to get use to it and then muscle soreness is much smaller, also at first i feel terrible next morning, every single muscle hurts, but as 10 days pass i see progress and i start to feel much better. And i don't get nervous, because i don't rest at all.

So, i compared results from all 4, i made one day brake after all of those, and when i try moves that i have been working towards, i see big improvement with all of them. So when i train two-three days in a row, next day i'm feeling sore and tired, on the other hand, when i rest every other day i don't get sore at all, but after 10 days of training in a row my body gets used to it and i suddenly improve, although during 3-10 days of that routine i feel very tired and sore. Now with third routine, i usually see progress also after 10 days, a have for example 3 planche trainings in 12 days, i see progress on 12-day. With 4 routine i see progress after almost the same amount of time. This is strange...

And one more thing, when i train without rest it is 45-60 minutes a day. When i train with one day rest i train for 90-120 minutes.

Haha, I feel ya. I was like that too a while ago and I have also went through similar training routines as you. Even if my biceps, shoulders and lats were sore I would still train planche. My palms would be very numb and red from freestanding handstands. I would go do pull-ups and train front lever, my lats would end up hurting. My legs would feel very sore all the time from lots of squats and squat jumps. Because of all of that my right shoulder was consistently in pain, my core, lats, legs, and biceps were sore every single day up to this day. I would also be very frustrated because my body would become too sore to do anything at all. My body would also become very fatigued and I would feel very weak.

It was just about 3-4 weeks ago I started to change my routine to be less intense, but I keep the volume. I also split up my main workouts into straight-arm and bent-arm, alternating between the two. After the main workout, I do the less intense stuff and do it everyday. With that my body gets the proper rest it needs and I can still train 6 days a week with 1 day of rest. Ever since then I actually saw alot more progress than before.

I find that lowering the intensity with less difficult exercises and keeping the same volume works pretty well for people who can't keep themselves from training so much. At least, in my opinion.

I once trained almost 2 months every day in a row, i cant belive how stupid i was. Im also exercise addict, but i would rather rest properly than train every day and hurt myself.

Yeah, i'm addicted to it. But, the results are more important. I will make a new routine combining all your advice together, and i will post it. 

Thank you.

What is low intensity though? I do my 'main' program about 3 times a week. Which nowadays lasts an hour and a half. 1 Day a week I do a leg workout and about two days a week I do backlever practice (as that is a goal right now). 

Would it be wiser too add the backlever practice to my 'main' program, so i'll have the other days rest. Or will that become too intense?

Also, is there any literature on Resting, deloading etc. in the form of a book or something?

Jurre said:

What is low intensity though? I do my 'main' program about 3 times a week. Which nowadays lasts an hour and a half. 1 Day a week I do a leg workout and about two days a week I do backlever practice (as that is a goal right now). 

Would it be wiser too add the backlever practice to my 'main' program, so i'll have the other days rest. Or will that become too intense?

 

Also, is there any literature on Resting, deloading etc. in the form of a book or something?

Well, it depends on the variation of the backlever you're practicing. Do you feel almost nothing after backlever practice? Do you find the current variation too stressful on your elbows or just too hard for you in general? You can go into an easier variation of backlever and keep the volume if you want.  Like say if you are doing 3x30s Advanced Tucked Back Lever and your muscles are still sore by the time you do it again, you can either decrease the volume or decrease difficulty as both would impact the intensity (sorry if I was not clear, what I meant by low intensity and same volume meant low difficulty and same volume).

Have you got a 60s German Hang? That and other mobility work is recommended before you practice the Back Lever, it could save you from injuries.

Here is my new routine.

Day 1: straight arm strength; planche progression hold 5 x max, front lever prog. hold 5 x max, negative maltese board position hold 5 x 10+ seconds, gymnastic handstand 3x15+ seconds, full wide back lever hold 3x10+ seconds, spear flag 3x and basic human flag 2x both sides, V-sit hold 3x, dragon flag negatives with straight arm 3x, planche leans 3x - i go for maximum possible protraction and depression, scapula retraction straight arm pulls on the bar, and at the end i do some easier core and leg exercises.

Day 2- rest, but i'll do some jogging or swimming for my EGO.

Day 3: bent arm strength; planche progr. push ups 5x max, front lever progr. pull ups 5x max, gymnastic handstand push ups negatives 3x; i cannot get up with perfect form, muscle up negatives 3x, one arm pull up progression 3x both sides, then i'll do some explosive push ups and pull ups, at the end core and leg exercises.

Day 4: complete rest

Day 5: Day 1 and .....

I'll work like this for 4 weeks, 5 week is a deload week, i'll work same exercise but with 50% intensity.

My main goal is to learn full planche and full front lever this year, other things are less important, but i still progress much faster on those other things, even if i do them when i'm already a little bit tired. You can see i have to do all exercises to feed my mental needs, i cannot sleep if i forget do to something that i think is important. What do you think about this one?

LilRunt said:

Well, it depends on the variation of the backlever you're practicing. Do you feel almost nothing after backlever practice? Do you find the current variation too stressful on your elbows or just too hard for you in general? You can go into an easier variation of backlever and keep the volume if you want. Like say if you are doing 3x30s Advanced Tucked Back Lever and your muscles are still sore by the time you do it again, you can either decrease the volume or decrease difficulty as both would impact the intensity (sorry if I was not clear, what I meant by low intensity and same volume meant low difficulty and same volume).

Have you got a 60s German Hang? That and other mobility work is recommended before you practice the Back Lever, it could save you from injuries.

I got German Hang with very little strain on the elbows. I just feel a big stretch in my chest. I used to do backlever straddled with bent knees, but after some weeks felt some discomfort in the elbows.

So went back to German Hangs and advanced Tuck backlever. Feel some strain after the training but nothing mayor.

The workout consists of german hang followed by advanced tuck backlever. Don't find this too stressfull and not too hard, though i'm feeling a little stress. I consider that to be okay.

What i'm overall wondering though, would it be smarter to get a very intense long workout but more rest days as oppossed too less rest days but the intense long workout spread over more days.

Sorry Gorizont for stealing your thread here.

GORIZONT said:

Here is my new routine.

Day 1: straight arm strength; planche progression hold 5 x max, front lever prog. hold 5 x max, negative maltese board position hold 5 x 10+ seconds, gymnastic handstand 3x15+ seconds, full wide back lever hold 3x10+ seconds, spear flag 3x and basic human flag 2x both sides, V-sit hold 3x, dragon flag negatives with straight arm 3x, planche leans 3x - i go for maximum possible protraction and depression, scapula retraction straight arm pulls on the bar, and at the end i do some easier core and leg exercises.

Day 2- rest, but i'll do some jogging or swimming for my EGO.

Day 3: bent arm strength; planche progr. push ups 5x max, front lever progr. pull ups 5x max, gymnastic handstand push ups negatives 3x; i cannot get up with perfect form, muscle up negatives 3x, one arm pull up progression 3x both sides, then i'll do some explosive push ups and pull ups, at the end core and leg exercises.

Day 4: complete rest

Day 5: Day 1 and .....

I'll work like this for 4 weeks, 5 week is a deload week, i'll work same exercise but with 50% intensity.

 

My main goal is to learn full planche and full front lever this year, other things are less important, but i still progress much faster on those other things, even if i do them when i'm already a little bit tired. You can see i have to do all exercises to feed my mental needs, i cannot sleep if i forget do to something that i think is important. What do you think about this one?

I always thought that training every second day is the best way to train. Lachlan Walker and Tyson Edwards (search on youtube if you dont know them) trained every second day and they have achieved great things with this metod of training.

Jurre no problem  . Somehow, my threads always go viral. 

The main change i made in the routine is splitting training into straight and bent arm. I always did planche then planche push ups, or Fl then Fl pull ups.

GORIZONT said:

Here is my new routine.

Day 1: straight arm strength; planche progression hold 5 x max, front lever prog. hold 5 x max, negative maltese board position hold 5 x 10+ seconds, gymnastic handstand 3x15+ seconds, full wide back lever hold 3x10+ seconds, spear flag 3x and basic human flag 2x both sides, V-sit hold 3x, dragon flag negatives with straight arm 3x, planche leans 3x - i go for maximum possible protraction and depression, scapula retraction straight arm pulls on the bar, and at the end i do some easier core and leg exercises.

Day 2- rest, but i'll do some jogging or swimming for my EGO.

Day 3: bent arm strength; planche progr. push ups 5x max, front lever progr. pull ups 5x max, gymnastic handstand push ups negatives 3x; i cannot get up with perfect form, muscle up negatives 3x, one arm pull up progression 3x both sides, then i'll do some explosive push ups and pull ups, at the end core and leg exercises.

Day 4: complete rest

Day 5: Day 1 and .....

I'll work like this for 4 weeks, 5 week is a deload week, i'll work same exercise but with 50% intensity.

 

My main goal is to learn full planche and full front lever this year, other things are less important, but i still progress much faster on those other things, even if i do them when i'm already a little bit tired. You can see i have to do all exercises to feed my mental needs, i cannot sleep if i forget do to something that i think is important. What do you think about this one?

Looks good to me!

Jurre said:

I got 3x 30s German Hang with very little strain on the elbows. I just feel a big stretch in my chest. I used to do backlever straddled with bent knees, but after some weeks felt some discomfort in the elbows.

So went back to German Hangs and advanced Tuck backlever (of which i'm doing 5x10 at this moment). Feel some strain after the training but nothing mayor.

 

The workout consists of 3x30s german hang followed by 5x10 s advanced tuck backlever. Don't find this too stressfull and not too hard, though i'm feeling a little stress. I consider that to be okay.

 

Do you think I should work up to 60s german hang and 3x 30 s advanced tuck?

 

What i'm overall wondering though, would it be smarter to get a very intense long workout but more rest days as oppossed too less rest days but the intense long workout spread over more days.

 

Sorry Gorizont for stealing your thread here.

Yeah, 3x60s German Hang would be ideal and 3x30s Advanced Tuck would be good too.

In my opinion, spreading your intense workout out over more days is smarter. It could prevent you from pushing too hard and getting injured from one session. That possible injury could give you more rest days than you would like.

Thanks for the response.

Will be working some more volume on the german hangs from now on. Also working my advanced tuck some more.

I also thought spreading it would be the smarter thing to do. Wondering if there is any scientific support for either way.

I'm not really interested in the forced rest by injury!

 

2 things:

1.) why not just do foundation?  I could understand if you already surpassed the basic BAS and SAS in the Foundation series but you have not..... so why reinvent the wheel that has been already given to you?

2.) The title of this thread was "When to train" to answer that question I before as Coach said "Training is breakfast"  

I prefer to train first thing in the morning upon rising before anything else.  For me and my busy life and work, it just never works out when I try to fit it in any other time then that.

Also wanted to add that when i use to power-lift many many years ago would train 4 days a week, and even when I started dabbling in BW training before finding Coach Sommer's work I would try to train 5-6 days a week, etc.  Now having been doing F for some time, I can not tolerate more than 3 days/week right now.  I find when I train more than 3 days, I have a strong inclination to not want to train!  Therefore, I listen to my body and stick with 3 days.  

Like Johnathan said earlier, you need to find the minimum effective dose.

1.) My family is poor, i don't have more than 10-20 bucks a months on my own. And, i respect gymnasts for what they do, that's why i always ask you for opinion. I don't go on youtube and watch those "bad form" tutorials, which are probably more than 90% when it comes to planche. Arched back all over the internet. I don't have money to train gymnastics professionally, also the trainers are literally unknown in here. I train to compete in street workout, therefore i don't need a professional gym and money.

2.) Of course i didn't mean that. I said that metaphorically...

But anyways, thanks everybody for informations.

Something like the double day 2 days on, then a rest day would probably be the most efficient.

20 days in a row might be possible if you start inserting light day/active rest days and managing the intensity. Helps to be young. In my HS days, I generally trained about 6 days in a row. Again, it helps to be young and eat everything in sight.

I can understand if you are dealing with exercise addiction. The girl in question in my life sorta deals with this because of the stress of work and school. Right now we put light skill work on her lighter days.

Depending on where you are, you can do a lot of different things as active rest or light days. Basic tumbling and HS work, not really serious straight or bent arm work. Or you might do lower body work such as sprints or jogging or rucking (though rucking tends to be harder on the body).

When I was training FT WLing, generally I trained 6 days in a row but TuTh were pretty light days.

When I was training gymnastics heavily before I stopped in 2011. MTuThF were my serious days but I would still do basics and stretch and some trampoline on Wednesdays besides HS work. Similar on Saturdays. Basically do my gymnastics warmup and play (HS and tramp) instead of event and strength work.

I wake up with back pain and arthritis stiffness every morning. Should I train in the morning after waking when my ROM is at it's worst to stretch it out or should I train later in the day after work when my muscles are more flexible?

On 5/31/2016 at 6:45 PM, Jana Treadwell said:

I wake up with back pain and arthritis stiffness every morning. Should I train in the morning after waking when my ROM is at it's worst to stretch it out or should I train later in the day after work when my muscles are more flexible?

I found that a well done warm-up evens out most of the differences between morning and evening ROMs.