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Ivan Pavlovic

Weighted gymnastics vs. BW gymnastics

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Ivan Pavlovic

What is beter and why ? Which one will build more muscle mass ? Which one will build more strengh ? Which is safer ? ......

I think to start train with extra weight, but first i want to study it so i dont do anything wrong. :)

 

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Daniel Burnham

Weighted- progression will be much slower. Tendency to up weights often leads to injury. Because if slower progression there is less learning of body control from new movements.

Also some movements are complicated to weight.

Weight may come into play when movements are just too easy and you need extra stimulus. Like the gymnasts in my gym with rope climb. Its just too easy so they often add 10-30 pounds. But then they also can hop on rings and crank out strength sequences.

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ASNB

Weighted is better for mass if you consider that a barbell squat is essentially a weighted calisthenic.  However, in my experience the difference is less than 10 percent overall body weight if you are lifting at a high level.  I think for most people the difference will be negligible. 

 

For strength, I may be partial, but straight arm work is king, and you don't need extra weight for that unless you are a mutant. I prefer no extra weight my self because of the hassle and basically I can get a hard work out in anywhere.  No extra weight is safer, but also not by much, the only way to be safe is not to train irresponsibly.

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Ivan Pavlovic

Weighted- progression will be much slower. Tendency to up weights often leads to injury. Because if slower progression there is less learning of body control from new movements.

Also some movements are complicated to weight.

Weight may come into play when movements are just too easy and you need extra stimulus. Like the gymnasts in my gym with rope climb. Its just too easy so they often add 10-30 pounds. But then they also can hop on rings and crank out strength sequences.

So if pullups and dips or anything else is easy to me it is okey to add weight ?

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Daniel Burnham

So if pullups and dips or anything else is easy to me it is okey to add weight ?

Sure it's ok if you take it slow. Adding weight to chins is how I got a nasty case of tendinitis.

Just know that you won't reach advanced movements using this method. You will find that eventually this will stop giving you progress where if you move on from dips and pullups to the more advanced movements you will gain new stimulus. I stopped doing weighted exercises for strength work a while ago and haven't looked back. Focusing on several movements was not only boring to me but wasn't as well rounded in developing strength except in one specific motion

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Jurre

So if pullups and dips or anything else is easy to me it is okey to add weight ?

Had sort of the same question couple of days ago. You can go the weighted route or you can go progress towards rope climbs. By doing pull ups on ropes. 

As for dips there are a lot of challenging progressions on the rings. With that being said, I noticed that when is started doing some weighted dips my pushing power started rising pretty fast.  Still would go with harder bodyweight progressions over weighted calisthenics anyday though.

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Toni Laukkavaara

if you dont want to progress into harder movements then use weights

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Daniel Burnham

if you dont want to progress into harder movements then use weights

It's not only about not progressing to harder movements but also not having as much structural balance.

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Ivan Pavlovic

So if i train with extra weight i will never get strenght to do planche, iron cross,front lever, etc... But what if i mix BW training with added weight training ?

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Jurre

Well first of all, dips and pull ups are bent arm strength exercises. Doing dips and pull ups won't get you a planche and iron cross either way. 

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Ivan Pavlovic

Well first of all, dips and pull ups are bent arm strength exercises. Doing dips and pull ups won't get you a planche and iron cross either way. 

I know that, but will weighted dips build stronger shoulders so i can after do planche easier ?

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Brian Li

Well yeah anything that makes your front delts stronger will indirectly help your planche to some extent. Some people find weighted dips to have little carryover to planche while I know some that say they helped them a lot.

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ASNB

It is very simple.  Straight arm work like planche work will make you very strong at dynamic like weighted dips and bench presses.  Weighted dips and bench pressing however will do very very little towards accomplishing a planche.  Nothing I have tried carries over much to straight arm work, but straight arm work carries over to almost everything strength related, even martial arts striking.  

 

Simple cost effectiveness.

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Alessandro Mainente

muscles tend to respond differently while stimulated in different position, especially if changes the cooperation with stabilizing joints/muscles. if you can reflects the pattern of rings strength movements it's fine, if not the utility is low. weight work is good for mobility , one exception is for example when there is the necessity to condition the body on some advanced skills. for example maltese, a reasonable thing is try to mimic the press while standing supine on a bench with correct body alignment. this is probably the only one situation ( maybe i can add 1 exercise for cross preparation) the reason is simply because you can manage the weight on the elbows. but this is an approach that must be substituted. it is not really necessary if you provide high elbows conditioning with iron cross mastery.

remember that move yourself while supporting yourself is different from move yourself while something support you. dips and planche? if you want maximal muscles activation with dips you need to assume different body position compared to planche, so the transfert will be very low.

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GoldenEagle

I know that, but will weighted dips build stronger shoulders so i can after do planche easier ?

No.

 

Standard parallel bar dips primarily targets the triceps and the pectoral major a little bit.

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Brian Li

No.

 

Standard parallel bar dips primarily targets the triceps and the pectoral major a little bit.

It also targets the front delts to a pretty major extent too.

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GoldenEagle

It also targets the front delts to a pretty major extent too.

Headstand and handstand push ups target the deltoids way more than standard dips do.

 

For the sake of fairness, "Standard" parallel bar dips has two basic versions

 

1. One which predominately targets the triceps : ExRx.net "Tricep dip"

2 The other one predominately targets the Sternal pectoralis major: EXrx.net "Chest Dips"

 

For both versions the syngerist muscles include:

Anterior Deltoid

Pectoralis minor

Rhomboids

Levator Scapulae

Latissimus Dorsi

Teres Major

 

Additional synergist muscles for the "Tricep Dip" are the clavicular and sternal pectoralis major.

Additional synergist muscles for the "Chest Dip" are the triceps and the clavicular pectoralis major.

 

The stabilizer muscles for both is the lower fibers of the trapezius.

 

 

 

*Kinesiology Definitions: Synergist - A muscle that assists another muscle to accomplish a movement.

Target - The primary muscle intended for exercise.

Edited by GoldenEagle

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Brian Li

Headstand and handstand pushup target the deltoids way more than standard dips do.

I know, I was just talking about it relative to other muscle groups in dips. 

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Joshua Slocum

If you're adding weights before you've exhausted the progressions, you might as well just be benchpressing. 

 

One of the main advantages of GST is that by progressively mastering many movements, you develop a more balanced physique and greater coordination/body awareness. If you stay on the same movement and just keep adding weight, you lose those benefits. There are some corner cases where adding weight might help, but in general moving on to a harder movement is the right decision. 

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Ivan Pavlovic

Thanks everybody, i finally decided that i will stay just on BW exercises because there is no reasons why i should start train with weight. I tought that dips an pullups with weight will make my back and shoulders stronger for planche and front lever (and other moves) but this can be done with BW exercises as you guys say. The only reason why somebody should do weighted exercises is to gain muscle mass and as you guys know gymnasts dont care about muscle mass. Thanks again guys. Cheers. :)

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Carmen Schult

It is very simple.  Straight arm work like planche work will make you very strong at dynamic like weighted dips and bench presses.  Weighted dips and bench pressing however will do very very little towards accomplishing a planche.  Nothing I have tried carries over much to straight arm work, but straight arm work carries over to almost everything strength related, even martial arts striking.  

 

Simple cost effectiveness.

well, while there may be a carry over from planche to bench press, the carry-over is limited since the movement is completly different. in bench press you will have retracted shoulders while in planche you will have protracted strength and you cant use this in bench press. you can only use your triceps strength there.

 

if you want to get very strong at bench press you have to bench press. if you want to get very strong in planches you have to do planches.

 

to say that bench press will have less carry over is simply not correct because someone who did bench press will have much stronger triceps than someone who never trained at all and the bench presser will progress faster in planches.

 

if straight arm training would be superior to dynamic bench press training in order to achieve higher dynamic bench pressing you would see every gymnast beat powerlifters in contests. but that's simply not the case

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Alexander Egebak

Planche will have better carry-over to bench press than the other way around. There is a reason that some of Coach's atheletes can about double body weight bench press.

 

I agree that a good bench press will be achieved best through bench pressing. But if you had read some of the posts about people's lifting status skyrocketing with only the completion of F1 you would know, that practice tells otherwise than what you think. I may not be the right person to explain this theoratically, so if anyone would chip in they are welcome.

 

You also forget all the carry-over from other retraction-positions that gymnasts practice; this also carry over to bench press.

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ASNB

well, while there may be a carry over from planche to bench press, the carry-over is limited since the movement is completly different. in bench press you will have retracted shoulders while in planche you will have protracted strength and you cant use this in bench press. you can only use your triceps strength there.

 

if you want to get very strong at bench press you have to bench press. if you want to get very strong in planches you have to do planches.

 

to say that bench press will have less carry over is simply not correct because someone who did bench press will have much stronger triceps than someone who never trained at all and the bench presser will progress faster in planches.

 

if straight arm training would be superior to dynamic bench press training in order to achieve higher dynamic bench pressing you would see every gymnast beat powerlifters in contests. but that's simply not the case

 

 

 

I benched  for 12 years with one 2 year break in the middle.  Before I quit my work sets were 350 lbs for 2 sets somehwere between 5 and 7 reps, overhead press 225 for reps skullcrushers 140 for reps, dumbell incline press 135 lb dumbells. 

 

During a break from lifting weights I did pushups dips and pullups for about 2 years, when I came back to bench pressing I hardly hit 225 8 reps.  Substantially lower that my previous numbers. 

 

In the two years since I have quit the weights and have only worked planche and levers etc I can hit 315 for 6-10 reps whenever i get under the bar which is very very seldom.  And i am only able to acheive an acceptable straddle planche at 200 lbs bodyweight. I have posted a pic of this in another thread. So Coach's observations of a full planche equivalence to a double bodyweight bench press are conservative.  I estimate at a full planche and able to do planche pushups with regular training in the bench I would be pushing  between 380 and 400 lbs for reps.  Not to mention that I am injury free and recovery is much shorter. 

 

It has taken me a full year to get to a straddle planche, maybe faster than an untrained individual but that is hardly relevant carryover. 

 

My friends who still bench press are putting up bigger numbers than I am but my hand and arm strength are vastly superior, might have something to do with that fact that they usually have sore elbows and shoulders. 

 

I feel my pectorals and triceps are fully capable of a full planche push up.  However my shoulders biceps and elbows are not.  The reason there is such high carryover is becuase straight arm work trains the weakest links in the bench press (elbows and shoulders)  in the postions at which there is the greatest leverage disadvantage possible.  I hypothsize that in general positions in a leverage disadvantage will carry over to positiions with relative advangtage like the bench press but not vice versa.  There are other reasons which I will not list. 

 

And the observation that gymnasts would be powerlifters if there was carryover makes absolutely no sense.  If those 130 lb ring mutants ever trained bench press regularly I am sure they would approach triple bodyweight raw becuase their joints would be able to take a serious beating. 

 

Also benching protracted is much harder than retracted and will ruin your shoulders.  So whatever you can push protracted is much less than with retracted shoulders. 

 

In any event, and no offense meant, but I really have no interest in theoretical discussions of this nature because no matter how interesting they might be, they are largely irrelevant to gaining strength.   I simply share what I have experienced.   You can test the relationship between planche and bench press yourself if you have the time and inclination. 

Edited by ASNB
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Coach Sommer

And the absolute strength levels continue to go up as one progresses into more advanced ring strength elements than a simple planche. 

 

For example, the former world champion on the rings Yan Mingyong (pictured below in some of his wedding pictures) benches 285lbs; at a bodyweight of 112lbs.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

p.s.  The first turn shown in mingyong's video is what he considers a warmup.   The second turn shown is an actual strength set.

 

p.p.s.  No, none of you are yet ready for this level of ring strength training.  But it is inspiring to see nonetheless.

 

 

yan4.jpg

 

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Brian Li

And the absolute strength levels continue to go up as one progresses into more advanced ring strength elements than a simple planche.

For example, the former world champion on the rings Yan Mingyong (pictured below in some of his wedding pictures) benches 285lbs; at a bodyweight of 112lbs.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

p.s. The first turn shown in mingyong's video is what he considers a warmup. The second turn shown is an actual strength set.

p.p.s. No, none of you are yet ready for this level of ring strength training. But it is inspiring to see nonetheless.

yan4.jpg

And that was for 3 reps too. I remember Wangtang say that Yang Mingyong did practice benching and incorporated it in his training though.
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