Dislocates: transition between shoulder flexion to shoulder extension [HOW TO]?

Are there any physiotherapists that have the knowledge to explain how exactly the shoulder (and surrounding parts) should move during dislocates (HS/PE5>iM) in the transition from flexion to extension? I must have totally misunderstood iM1 and iM3 or something because doing them has transfered NOTHING for me in iM5. Are the iM1 & iM3 supposed to be done for working the middle and upper middle back or are they meant to be done in a relaxed fashion where the added weight is supposed to stretch the tendons (or whatever it is) in the front of the shoulders??? That is question one.

In the iM5 I believe I can do the movement in almost shoulder width with 3kg added. But it KILLS ME the next day. I break myself. I get golfers elbow and it feels like I have knives in the front part of my shoulders for days. I basically can not even use my arms at all. Anyway, I have obviously stopped forcing the shoulder width and gone REAALLY wide, almost the far ends of the stick and still the movement grinds my shoulders. And if I manage to control the transition sometime it feels like there is no point in doing dislocates at all for me. I dont see any benefits from this movement at all, not now and not in the long run. Either I've totally misunderstood the previous iM1 and iM3 or I just do not understand... Please help me understand this movement! I've tried to figure it out for myself but now I give up.

1. These iM's build strength through the range of shoulder flexion and scapula elevation. So you should feel the trapezius and deltoids working a lot. These movements get you use to activating the upper traps and flexing the shoulders without spinal movement. Think of this as the first part of the dislocate.

2. The fact that you were in so much pain after doing the disclocates indicates you were too narrow and heavy. Also you may have not been activating the upper traps and rear delts/rhomboids/mid traps at the back of the movement. Sometimes people are too lax in the shoulders and spine and load this puts too much strain on the connective tissue.

In my mind this is how I do the dislocates.

1. Contract the abs, gluteus and quads to put myself in a slight hollow.

2. Lift the stick/bar overhead and elevate the scapula as much as possible so I feel my upper traps contract hard. At this pint I think of reaching the stick up to the ceiling.

3. As I move to the transition I focus on keeping the abs tight and not letting my chest lift. This keeps the spine still so I am only moving the shoulders.

4. I then push the the stick backward as I contract the rear delts and squeeze the scapula back.

5. As the stick goes back I think of making a big circle. The more I contract the mid traps and rhomboids the bigger the circle. At this point my chest wants to lift so I focus on abs tight..

6. Rising from the back up is the process in reverse.

When I do these well my shoulders and rear back feel tired but more mobile.

Over the months of doing the dislocates the better my shoulders feel. Be patient and keep at these as they are one of the best exercises for the shoulders. I initially was like you and did not understand how good these were. Many of my patients now do these and have also benefited from them.

They also teach you to dissociate the shoulder movement from spinal movement. This means you can move the shoulders without the spine. This is important when lifting heavy weight overhead so that you do not hinge at the spine. Also helps in those that work in physical jobs with a lot of overhead activity.

Thank you for your posts Mark, much appreciated!

I feel you gave me more understanding of this movement. Or at least hope for future understanding and details on how to proceed with this movement from now on.

Mark Collins said:

1. Contract the abs, gluteus and quads to put myself in a slight hollow.

2. Lift the stick/bar overhead and elevate the scapula as much as possible so I feel my upper traps contract hard. At this pint I think of reaching the stick up to the ceiling.

3. As I move to the transition I focus on keeping the abs tight and not letting my chest lift. This keeps the spine still so I am only moving the shoulders.

4. I then push the the stick backward as I contract the rear delts and squeeze the scapula back.

5. As the stick goes back I think of making a big circle. The more I contract the mid traps and rhomboids the bigger the circle. At this point my chest wants to lift so I focus on abs tight..

6. Rising from the back up is the process in reverse.

 

Ha-haaah! This list of yours is awesome! Finally it feels like a useful exercise. Even though I reduced the weight to only 1kg and the width to about 2x shoulder width the muscle burn and contraction is intense. And most importantly, no pain. Thank you again!

It took me a while to get the hang of it. I feel like the better I get at gymnastic exercises the harder they get.

I am glad you are finding them a productive exercise.

Mark, I can't express how much appreciate your post. Today, for the first in my life, I felt no pain doing this exercise, I just felt a ton of contraction from my mucles, fatigue and a feeling of happiness! Thank you again, you save me probably from a painful injury!

I also found this post really helpful. I used the bullet points in my workout today and for the first time I felt my muscles actually doing the work. I think this will finally help me to start bringing my hands closer.

to the guys who posted before me...what have you done different to the list from Marc?

Isn't this how you will do naturally? i'm just interested in what you have done wrong in this movement, i have problems too, did them first time yesterday, but how can you do them without all the points he mentioned? ok, you can loose the tension, but what else?

i dont want to say its useless, i'm just wondering maybe i missed the point.

Marc, thanks for the list, but is there anything about elbows? because i feel like they are my limiting factor right now, but i did dislocates like you mentioned(or i tried) and i always feel a strain in my elbows while making the turn over my head.

Can i just stretch more?

Thanks!

I did forget to mention that there is a big nerve stretch at the elbows as it is a bilateral movement under tension. This takes time to go away, but do not force it as nerves don't like to be over stretched. I keep my grip tight and focus on full elbow lockout.

Mark Collins said:

I did forget to mention that there is a big nerve stretch at the elbows as it is a bilateral movement under tension. This takes time to go away, but do not force it as nerves don't like to be over stretched. I keep my grip tight and focus on full elbow lockout.

Ok, thanks! 

Yeah it feels just weird in the elbows. but i try to grip hard through the whole movement too. I feel like i should stretch my biceps tendons too, feel a pull through the whole arm, starting shoulder, ending elbow. any good stretch for that? i would much appreciate it

Dislocates are simple and poorly named.  You just need to look at your shoulder socket to see that it is very shallow and therefore offers a very wide range of motion.  You want to 1) always focus shoulder stretches on your shoulder so do not move your back or neck and 2) train strength along with flexibility so weighted, at the proper level is better than no weight.  If you experience excessive soreness back-off ASAP, train at your level not beyond it to make the fastest progress.

William said:

to the guys who posted before me...what have you done different to the list from Marc?

What I've done different is basically I skipped the hollow (abs, quads and hams contracting), and the shoulders were pretty much relaxed. I tried to find the stretch from every angle, even press through the locked out position (like used in weightlifting). I dont really know, the shoulders seem to be very complex, at least I don't have enough understanding of this part of the body. It is interesting that you seem surprised how one can go wrong in this movement though. =)

Mark Collins said:

 but do not force it as nerves don't like to be over stretched. 

I found this knowledge of yours to be interesting as well Mark. I've often wondered during stretching what it actually is that I am stretching. I've just recently learned how "isolated" muscle stretch feels like, but can not properly categorize the other feelings. How do you know if it is nerves, tendons or connective tissue (or something else)? Can one stretch the veins?

For me I get many different sensations when stretching the hips or shoulders from certain angles that I don't really understand if they are good or not. Sometime it feels pretty good until the blood stops and I cannot feel anything anymore. Sometimes the stretched area gets tighter the days after, as if injured or something. .. so many question marks.. so many questions Mark.

Nino Begovic said:

What I've done different is basically I skipped the hollow (abs, quads and hams contracting), and the shoulders were pretty much relaxed. I tried to find the stretch from every angle, even press through the locked out position (like used in weightlifting). I dont really know, the shoulders seem to be very complex, at least I don't have enough understanding of this part of the body. It is interesting that you seem surprised how one can go wrong in this movement though. =)

Haha, yes the shoulder is complex and i also do not have enough knowledge about it, but i just did the movement with tensing shoulders and moved the shoulder blades like we should do naturally, but to keep the hollow is quite hard for me because my broom stick is just long enough that i can grip it at the end, but how are you guys stretching before this iM?

It cannot be, that this i iM is so bad and the rest was quite good

And should i also start with small weight, even if i am at the end of the range of my broom stick with my hands?

William said:

Haha, yes the shoulder is complex and i also do not have enough knowledge about it, but i just did the movement with tensing shoulders and moved the shoulder blades like we should do naturally, but to keep the hollow is quite hard for me because my broom stick is just long enough that i can grip it at the end, but how are you guys stretching before this iM?

It cannot be, that this i iM is so bad and the rest was quite good

And should i also start with small weight, even if i am at the end of the range of my broom stick with my hands?

What do you mean by "end of the range of the broom stick"?

Well, to try to answer how I go by with this one is that I actually do not warm up specifically for this because I have chosen to integrate the HS exercise with the Foundation exercises, and extracted the hand exercises which I do separately from what I've chosen to call 'the big exercises'. I always do the HS last so I am pretty warm by then.

About the grip width and weight, how wide is your current broom stick? Mine is pretty wide and atm I believe I am holding 2x shoulder width or a little tighter, but with only 1kg weight which actually feels really really much when I do as Mark has written in the list. If you do not feel comfortable with any weight probably you'd do right to avoid so, but you should also consider getting a longer broom stick. I dont feel any pain any longer after this iM, and I think key has been the 3 steps:

1 constant ab contraction

2 stick going as high as humanly possible in the top position

3 stick shifting direction from upward to strongly backward (as much as humanly possible)

And like Mark said, same but reverse when going back. Without step 1 and 2, i get pain in the transition. And the hard part for me has been getting back up again, which tempts me to kind of swing the stick up or rush the movement - which would mean instant injury (for me).

I dont know, maybe I talked about the wrong things, but I hope some answers came to you. I think Mark and other more experienced may answer better. =)

Nino Begovic said:

What do you mean by "end of the range of the broom stick"?

Well, to try to answer how I go by with this one is that I actually do not warm up specifically for this because I have chosen to integrate the HS exercise with the Foundation exercises, and extracted the hand exercises which I do separately from what I've chosen to call 'the big exercises'. I always do the HS last so I am pretty warm by then.

About the grip width and weight, how wide is your current broom stick? Mine is pretty wide and atm I believe I am holding 2x shoulder width or a little tighter, but with only 1kg weight which actually feels really really much when I do as Mark has written in the list. If you do not feel comfortable with any weight probably you'd do right to avoid so, but you should also consider getting a longer broom stick. I dont feel any pain any longer after this iM, and I think key has been the 3 steps:

1 constant ab contraction

2 stick going as high as humanly possible in the top position

3 stick shifting direction from upward to strongly backward (as much as humanly possible)

And like Mark said, same but reverse when going back. Without step 1 and 2, i get pain in the transition. And the hard part for me has been getting back up again, which tempts me to kind of swing the stick up or rush the movement - which would mean instant injury (for me).

I dont know, maybe I talked about the wrong things, but I hope some answers came to you. I think Mark and other more experienced may answer better. =)

Haha, no you are on the right track. i meant, the stick is just too short haha

but here my first attempt on this, one week ago. i cannot hold my body posture because then i couldnt even get one rep...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8SX86F5d8A&feature=youtu.be i posted it also in my own topic(https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/15521-finally-i-got-h1-lets-start/page-2)

and yes i know my breathing is terrible in this im, but its really the first big road block for me...

William how much weight is on that bar? I believe in HS/p5 that you may have too much weight because you seem to have difficulty pressing your upper chest down on the floor. You should try reduce the weight (maybe even close to no weight at all) and try with priority #1: upper chest pressing on floor, prio #2: chin to floor. You should feel your glutes/hip wanting to lift off the floor then, which i believe is ok (correct me if I am wrong).

I'm finding it hard to tell on the iM5 but my guess would be these things:

1: Get a new stick and reduce weight until you are comfortable with step 2 and 3.

2: Slow down and make sure your got these steps throughout the entire movement:

 -- 2.a: Stiff legs to remind you of 2.b.

 -- 2.b: Abs contracted. (= Chest in place) (Your chest in this clip is almost facing upward.)

3: Slow down the entire movement, especially during the transition between extension/flexion, in your clip you seem to be rushing through that part (maybe due to discomfort?).

4: Do not forget 2.a which also says do not forget 2.b. Sync them with 3.

Thats what I think =)

the PE, i just can tell you thats not possible for me to get my upper chest more down without breaking my neck, not jocking, i just cannot take my head more back and the chest more down at the same time, i have tried. maybe my chest is just not big as the one of the athlete, what seems to me realistic, i'm also very lean.

but i feel this exercise totally in my trapz and shoulders, so i'm targeting the right muscles, right?

the weight isn't that much, like 4kg i could do the same with 8kg, so i dont think this plays a role in my posture in that case.

iM- you are funny, where to find a longer stick as the one i already have?(its a curtain stick) so the longest i know so far
but i think its just enough to start for me, i dont want to train with i dont know 3 meter long stick or so

maybe i should just start without the weights first and then yes, have to see whats going on.

like i wrote above first thing that stops me is the strain in my elbows to get the hands closer, maybe first have to work on that...

and yes i cannot hold my chest down, its always going up, even if i contract the abs, have to figure this out, i'd say this is my way to try to avoid the strain in my elbows haha

thanks for your input so far.

Nino Begovic said:

I found this knowledge of yours to be interesting as well Mark. I've often wondered during stretching what it actually is that I am stretching. I've just recently learned how "isolated" muscle stretch feels like, but can not properly categorize the other feelings. How do you know if it is nerves, tendons or connective tissue (or something else)? Can one stretch the veins?

For me I get many different sensations when stretching the hips or shoulders from certain angles that I don't really understand if they are good or not. Sometime it feels pretty good until the blood stops and I cannot feel anything anymore. Sometimes the stretched area gets tighter the days after, as if injured or something. .. so many question marks.. so many questions Mark.

When you stretch a nerve it hits appoint where it feels like it is a tight band that will not give regardless of how long you stretch for. You can feel this if you sit with your legs straight out in front. Grab hold of your toes and pull them back as you bend forward. Then tuck your chin to the chest. At this point you have maximal tension on both sciatic nerves. After about 20 seconds the blood supply to the nerve reduces, which is not a good thing. A lot of people do this stretch for years wondering why they never improve. Nerves like to be mobilised, rather than stretched. They also like it when the structures they slide on or through are mobile. For example trigger points in the buttocks will increase neural tension of the sciatic nerve. Similarly tight scalenes in the neck and latissimus Doris in the shoulder will increase neural tension in the upper limb. It is best to treat these areas with manual therapy, dry needling, nerve mobilisation and correction of poor movement patterns. If you upset the nerves with over stretching or mobilisation they can be sore for days. The symptoms are usually altered sensation, numbness and pins and needles.

Fascia and connective tissue when stretched can often feel similar to nerves, but they do give after 2-4 minutes of stretching. Stretches like the Jefferson curls, pike leans, straddle and dislocates tend to hit the fascia. When stretched aggressively these structures can leave you sore for a couple of days, but you should feel increased range of motion that is more permanent.

Muscles usually give after 20 secs to 2 minutes. They respond well to static and PNF stretching and feel nice when stretched.You normally don't get too sore from stretching muscle unless you are new to exercising.

Unless you have some underlying nerve tension all the mobility exercises in Foundation and Handstand fall into the fascia and muscle stretching categories.

This link explains some more about nerve mobilisations. There are textbooks written on nerve mobilisation and it is a complex subject that even experts are learning more about.

http://orthowellpt.com/nerve-mobilization-techniques/

I hope that helps.

Mark Collins said:

I hope that helps.

That was amazing! You are like the Godfather! Tons of thanks!!!!!! 

Here are some videos from todays dislocates. Is the form ok so far?

It is 1,25kg on the stick.

hs5im back.MOV

hs5im front.MOV

hs5im side.MOV

I can't view these from my my iPad. Are they only viewable from non-mobile devices?

No they are taken with an iPhone. 

Mark, thanks for your post at first page. I just did that "nerve-stretch" and I've felt as two little-bands acros my back; just impressive how awesome the body is. 

Thanks for your input with dislocates. Really really appreciate your knowledge.