Coach's Podcast with Barbell Shrugged

[JASON MONCE]

So nice to hear the truth

Thank's for posting

[David Creekmore]

Ha, Coach isn't going to win any diplomacy awards.   (And neither will Glassman.)

The title is a trojan horse isn't it?  "Improving Gymnastic Skills in Crossfit"

[bombadil]

So, given that Barbell Shrugged has a heavy CF audience, I shared this video with the other trainers at my local CF gym.  Although I still coach there, I don't train CF anymore.  After some discussion, the big question was something like this:  

 

Okay, this is great for people who want to focus on gymnastics, but how can we apply this to our CF group.  It would be a hard "sell" for new members who are taken with the marketing and commercialization of the Games and the socks and the shirtless workouts and the kips, etc.  

Although the programming is better and the results are better, how might a gym owner/coach marry this programming and progression with a CF audience?  It would be challenging to take the house wife who just got her first kipping pullup back down to RCPE1.  

 

I know this would be THE RIGHT thing to do; however, many who will not be willing to research BtGB program will probably not accept this...

 

Case in point, many of the athletes with whom I work will not take my advice to step back from the exercises they're trying to hit (e.g. HSPU), and instead, scale down to a simpler progression and then build back up.  They want to do the movement with bands or with kipping, etc...

 

Is it a lost cause?  Or is there a way to bring in better foundation programming into CF?  

[Daniel Burnham]

So, given that Barbell Shrugged has a heavy CF audience, I shared this video with the other trainers at my local CF gym.  Although I still coach there, I don't train CF anymore.  After some discussion, the big question was something like this:  

 

Okay, this is great for people who want to focus on gymnastics, but how can we apply this to our CF group.  It would be a hard "sell" for new members who are taken with the marketing and commercialization of the Games and the socks and the shirtless workouts and the kips, etc.  

Although the programming is better and the results are better, how might a gym owner/coach marry this programming and progression with a CF audience?  It would be challenging to take the house wife who just got her first kipping pullup back down to RCPE1.  

 

I know this would be THE RIGHT thing to do; however, many who will not be willing to research BtGB program will probably not accept this...

 

Case in point, many of the athletes with whom I work will not take my advice to step back from the exercises they're trying to hit (e.g. HSPU), and instead, scale down to a simpler progression and then build back up.  They want to do the movement with bands or with kipping, etc...

 

Is it a lost cause?  Or is there a way to bring in better foundation programming into CF?  

Difficult question.  Its true that the popularity of crossfit lies with sensationalism of the games.  I have had several women tell me they are turned off by this approach because they feel they are not doing as much of a workout as the men.  When things are just for time it feels like everyone is doing the same things.  I think this is why for GST to become mainstream the focus will have to be shifted to making people realize that quality is better.

 

However I whenever I train in crossfit gyms I do get a lot of questions from the more experienced people who realize they have gotten worse mobility or are unable to make progress using their current method.  It seems it takes several years for most people to get to this realization but I have known several people to either stop crossfit for F series or integrate F series into their routines.

 

I would also like to mention that many crossfit gyms now have what they call fundamental classes that teach the movements before hand.  But most people think of this as initiation more than somewhere they can actually improve themselves.  

[Joshua Slocum]

So, given that Barbell Shrugged has a heavy CF audience, I shared this video with the other trainers at my local CF gym.  Although I still coach there, I don't train CF anymore.  After some discussion, the big question was something like this:  

 

Okay, this is great for people who want to focus on gymnastics, but how can we apply this to our CF group.  It would be a hard "sell" for new members who are taken with the marketing and commercialization of the Games and the socks and the shirtless workouts and the kips, etc.  

Although the programming is better and the results are better, how might a gym owner/coach marry this programming and progression with a CF audience?  It would be challenging to take the house wife who just got her first kipping pullup back down to RCPE1.  

 

I know this would be THE RIGHT thing to do; however, many who will not be willing to research BtGB program will probably not accept this...

 

Case in point, many of the athletes with whom I work will not take my advice to step back from the exercises they're trying to hit (e.g. HSPU), and instead, scale down to a simpler progression and then build back up.  They want to do the movement with bands or with kipping, etc...

 

Is it a lost cause?  Or is there a way to bring in better foundation programming into CF?  

Short answer: results. 

 

People follow results. If a CF box starts bringing home lots of hardware, people will take note. If the box that does GST right has people working cross pulls and galimores, people will want to know how they got to that level. You may have difficulty holding the attention of people who just want entertrainment, but people looking to actually improve will flock to the gym that gets results. 

[Daniel Burnham]

Short answer: results. 

 

People follow results. If a CF box starts bringing home lots of hardware, people will take note. If the box that does GST right has people working cross pulls and galimores, people will want to know how they got to that level. You may have difficulty holding the attention of people who just want entertrainment, but people looking to actually improve will flock to the gym that gets results. 

Its getting people to start thats the problem.

[Alan Tseng]

Short answer: results. 

 

People follow results. If a CF box starts bringing home lots of hardware, people will take note. If the box that does GST right has people working cross pulls and galimores, people will want to know how they got to that level. You may have difficulty holding the attention of people who just want entertrainment, but people looking to actually improve will flock to the gym that gets results.

Disagree. It requires a complete cultural change in crossfit and I doubt it will happen because it's going against the entire spirit of crossfit

[Joshua Slocum]

Its getting people to start thats the problem.

Bombadil has already started. Once he started getting towards the end of the GB cirriculum, though, people will start to take note. People in his gym will want to know how he got there. It's not going to convert a whole lot of people in the short term, 

 

Disagree. It requires a complete cultural change in crossfit and I doubt it will happen because it's going against the entire spirit of crossfit

Actually, I agree with you. Crossfit as an institution isn't going to change just because some people are doing well in the games and also have some flashy GST moves. The question of how to make correct GST standard for Crossfit is much more difficult and challenging problem than figuring out how to run one gym that does things right.

[Jonathan Horowitz]

IMHO (and coach's), you won't see a shift to the type of standards required here - it makes it too inaccessible to the general population, and the spectacle survives on inclusiveness and accessibility. 

 

I train at a CF gym with a ton of competitive athletes (Regional team winners two years in a row), and although they've asked questions about what in the world I'm doing, none of them have expressed an interest in narrowly focusing on the Foundation elements - it would take too much away from their CF training.

 

Really enjoyed the podcast, makes me really want to get my butt to a seminar so I can spend a whole weekend under his tutelage. 

[Matthew Proulx]

Crossfit is an event that is not judged on technical skill, there is no set standard on what is acceptable or not. Perhaps these things need to be addressed before you decide the methods in which to train them. 

[eko_zero]

Thanks coach for the informative and no b/s approach to standards, the robb wolf podcast helped reinforce in my opinion, that the tortoise really does beat the hare.

[Chris Garay]

I foresee a few possible scenarios regarding CrossFit and the Foundation courses:

 

1. Most average fitness clients at CrossFit gyms do not care about competing in the CrossFit Games, and as such if their coach programs Foundation work, they'll do it, especially if they see results.

 

2. Competitive CrossFitters (and those who think they're competitive CrossFitters even though they're not) will start doing Foundation work IF AND ONLY IF a high-level CrossFitter achieves success and credits it to his Foundation work.

[Arthur Wong]

Enjoyed the podcast hope Coach does more of these

[Daniel Burnham]

Bombadil has already started. Once he started getting towards the end of the GB cirriculum, though, people will start to take note. People in his gym will want to know how he got there. It's not going to convert a whole lot of people in the short term, 

 

Actually, I agree with you. Crossfit as an institution isn't going to change just because some people are doing well in the games and also have some flashy GST moves. The question of how to make correct GST standard for Crossfit is much more difficult and challenging problem than figuring out how to run one gym that does things right.

 

People are quite interested in how I progressed.  But after I tell them they don't seem to care to work for that. But then again Im not a great sales person.  I demonstrate and let the people decide for themselves if they want the same things.  I guess it would take several people outperforming others before they are simply dismissed as outliers.  

 

Strict gymnastic movements are quite devalued in crossfit.  It seems to mostly be because there were no great planned progressions and gymnastics is quite difficult go through.  It is certainly less accessible than weightlifting (sorry WL lovers).  That is a definite reason people think what we do is cool but not enough to justify stopping their competition with the other metconners and gamers.

 

Another problem is that there are too many other people out there pretending to be experts that are just clouding the waters.

[Bruce Dierl]

Disagree. It requires a complete cultural change in crossfit and I doubt it will happen because it's going against the entire spirit of crossfit

I don't think it's just crossfit, it applies to everything. It is this instant gratification thing that is so rampant these days. The general population is being fed this so often that it is 'normal' to expect results whether any genuine effort has been put in. 

[Connor Davies]

Great podcast.  If we're going to see a few more of these, it would be nice if there was a spot on the website where they were all grouped together.

 

I notice there was a hell of a lot of focus on the muscle-up.  Can't fault that as it was aimed at the crossfit community and it seems the muscle-up is all they care about, but I'd love to see Coach address more handbalancing issues.

 

The break was interesting.  I get the feeling they were worried Coach was ragging on crossfit too much, and they had to take him to one side to hear him out fully before committing anything more to the recording.  Poor crossfit.  It's such an easy target that it's easy to slip into insulting it, but they really do get a lot of great stuff accomplished.

[Colin Macdonald]

 I get the feeling they were worried Coach was ragging on crossfit too much

 

He wasn't taking any cheap shots though. He was mostly just saying (in his typical, direct way) that their ring strength sucks, and that their injury rates are way too high. Which are both spot on.

[Jason Stein]

[H]ow can we apply this to our CF group. 

 

Is it a lost cause?  Or is there a way to bring in better foundation programming into CF?  

Bombadil-

 

What you are asking means a cultural sea-change needs to take place at your Crossfit gym.

 

It is possible, but requires a concerted decision by the owners and coaches, as well as a revision of the gym's mission statement. It must be a top-down decision.

 

I train at Crossfit Portland, which has been open since 2005. Since then, they have made experience- and evidence-based shifts away from typical Crossfit movements, including kipping pull-ups and muscle-ups; I don't think I've seen a sumo deadlift high-pull there for 5 years. 

 

Additionally, 'benchmark'-style WODs are performed infrequently and used as tests of training. So a specific named WOD will be performed, and then repeated after a 6- or 8-week block of focused training. This means gym members are not doing Fran, Cindy, Filthy 50, Fight Gone Bad, etc, etc, 2x/week.

 

The gym also immediately provides new members with multi-step progressions to develop the push-up and the strict pull-up.

 

The other gym value is a strict eye toward form before intensity or volume. All new members receive movement screens, and then basic lifts and movements are taught with appropriate individual variations --- unloaded and slowly.

 

It is possible to run a thriving Crossfit gym with movement standards. I think the way Pavel's site sums it up is best: performance standards dictate training complexity.

 

This is a top-down effort and must come from all coaches and owners. It takes courage, compassion and reassurance. I have observed that for the most part shaming adult clients encourages them to go elsewhere. (I.e. telling them they're weak, fat, slow, stupid, don't want it bad enough, etc, etc.) 

 

People don't want their hands held, but they do want actual coaching, which can simply mean pointing out an improvement.

 

On a practical level, for example, this might mean insisting that during strength training (not timed competition), all ring dips are locked out 45-degrees. It might mean (god forbid) implementing your own gym's performance standards ("Before you are allowed to perform kipping muscle-up, you must demonstrate x-number of strict, before strict, x seconds of false-grip hang, before false-grip hang, etc, etc.")

 

I suspect your movement standards would dovetail very efficiently with the Foundation courses.

 

Best of luck in pursuing this-

 

jason

[Jon Douglas]

stuff which is kind of long to quote

 

^ Great post! ^

[Connor Davies]

He wasn't taking any cheap shots though. He was mostly just saying (in his typical, direct way) that their ring strength sucks, and that their injury rates are way too high. Which are both spot on.

Oh yeah, absolutely.  I just get the feeling they were worried he might alienate their fanbase/sponsors/whoever.  It never hurts to be careful when committing something to public record, which is advice I should really heed more myself...

[Coach Sommer]

... The break was interesting.  I get the feeling they were worried Coach was ragging on crossfit too much, and they had to take him to one side to hear him out fully before committing anything more to the recording ...

 

 

 

 

Not at all.  They always break part way through a podcast; to insert either a commercial or a technical advice vid.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Andrew Parker]

Great Podcast.  I bought F1 because of it.  I look forward to the Gymnastics journey and I am getting the sinking feeling that my weightlifting is going to take a back seat.

[Coach Sommer]

... I look forward to the Gymnastics journey and I am getting the sinking feeling that my weightlifting is going to take a back seat ...

 

 

Only temporarily.   

 

Once you reach the point in your GST where you are actively engaging in straight arm ring strength and more advanced upper body plyometric work, your weightlifting will be stronger than ever.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[ADRIANO FLORES CANO]

One thing is really true: very few people really want to put the time and efforts requires to pursue this journey. I'm not talking about just training hard, that's something different. I'm talking about what we do and share here everyday, that is more than training hard.

 

GST never will be mainstream because people just want the easy road. Crossfiters or fitness people, doesn't matter. That's why they see what we do and get "o_O", and they ask us about our training and we say: "Nope, I don't practice pullups, I go all the way down to rows" "Oh, Ok, hey, I've to go to do my kipping pullups."

 

Excellence is not for everyone. And that's fine, not big deal. Just the reality.

 

Great podcast. A little bit annoying that everything is around CF. Even thought, I enjoyed Coach pressence and smart talk!

[Jason Stein]

Adriano-

 

Human beings --- that is, you, me, and Chen Ybing --- have not evolved to prefer difficulty, hardship, or duress.

 

So rather than blaming people for giving in to a very powerful part of their make-up, why not help them?

 

This does not mean making a YouTube compilation of your strongest skills (no process), and then telling people they're fat, stupid, lazy, unmotivated, or don't want it bad enough. 

 

It means lead from the front. Sure, model your skills, which are an expression of your work ethic, your character, and your ability to fail.

 

(This will also be interesting for you to do at 50-60-70 years of age.)

 

But more than that, it means you create an opportunity for people to follow effective ordered progressions. Lay out a path. Create accountability to standards, and create expectations that those standards will be met.

 

A great many people want greatness of some kind, whether professionally, athletically, or personally. They will work tremendously, even obsessively, to achieve their goals. 

 

At a certain point, commitment to true physical virtuosity requires a trade-off, which will pull people away from their other, higher purpose (family, work, belief).

 

My wife, for example, loves expressing herself physically. However, there is a point at which dedication to movement takes her away from her guiding value, which is family. This is roughly anything more than 10 hours a week. It's not that she doesn't want to work hard, or hold herself to standards of excellence. She is simply not interested in moving beyond that point. Her virtuosity lies elsewhere.

 

Offer an invitation to greatness and give people the tools to step into that greatness. 

 

best,

jason