Managing macro diet and perfect workout nutrition in 40's

[David Creekmore]

I've been doing F1, all first exercises for the last month.  I have definitely seen strength gains using Josh's pre and post workout program, which I have followed pretty closely.  I'm 45 years old.  I'm doing the whey shakes before and after every workout with the added carbs etc...  

 

My question is about the rest of my diet.  I'm trying to hit 150 grams protein per day but I think I'm gaining weight, beyond lean muscle mass.  It's been about a pound a week and although still imperceptible with bodyfat calipers, I doubt this is all lean mass.

 

I do need to stay pretty lean because I perform circus arts (amature, not pro) .  I realize yes, that it's hard to both stay lean and build strength.  So I know I may be walking a very fine line.  Nonetheless, maybe you have thoughts or tips to help me manage it.

 

I'm 150lbs 69kg, 11% bodyfat when first measured.  5'10'  178 cm.  45 years old.

 

There are two issues I think contributing to it:

 

One is that I'm a vegetarian, and to hit my protein targets of 150 grams per day, I have to eat a lot of dairy and eggs and beans.  I try to limit my soy protein to about 30grams.   I'm eating full fat yogurt and eggs a lot .   I already eat a ton of vegetables, mostly blanched, raw or lightly sauteed.

 

The other is that, according to the recommendation, I eat in 30-35 gram pulses because of my age.  This is a nightmare to accomplish.    Three eggs and a cup of black beans or a cup and a half of greek yogurt is twice what I would have eaten before for breakfast.  It feels like too much.

 

 

Some thoughts - 

 

• i could switch to non fat dairy.  that would speed up absorption, but casein is already pretty slow.  And it would only shave off a bit.
• I'd love to skip the 30 gram pulses.  My understanding is that the research was for people in their 70's but I don't know that for certain.
• I could use more protein powder, or even lucine supplements to eat less, but it wouldn't be as 'natural' as dairy and eggs.
• I could do more cardio, but I'm barely finding time for F1 and my circus training so long cardio will be hard I think.

 

 

Any other suggestions/ ideas?  thx

 

 

[Connor Davies]

Yeah, you shouldn't worry too much about getting enough fibre.  If you're eating a lot of veggies as it is, you're going to stay pretty healthy no matter what.

 

Don't worry yourself about whether your protein is coming from 'natural' sources, because at the end of the day protein is protein and as a vegetarian you're not getting enough of it.  Sure, you can get by without so much protein, but it helps....  Try hemp protein or split pea protein instead of soy though.

 

Remember that the 1lb/g protein ratio is for bodybuilders trying to gain weight, so you may not need that much if you're maintaining.  I think it's what, 56g on average to avoid losing muscle mass, so anything above that should help you gain muscle, even if it's slower.  Or you could just get bigger.  If you're making 'lean' gains of pure force producing mass, I don't see that it would hold you back in anything, even trapeze.

[David Creekmore]

Thanks, I think you are probably right about the protein amount although I am supposed to get 30-35 gram pulses so 150 is the closest.

 

 

Ha, I'm definitely not having trouble with fiber.   And I'm not looking for a vegan protein powder - dairy is okay right now.

 

I would boil it down to:

 

A) Must I really get 30-35 gram pulses at age 45.   It's so much food to eat.  

B) Or should I just get a chunk of protein from powder because getting it from vegetarian sources takes so much food (and usually calories)

C) And if I should supplement outside the pre/post workout shake, should I use a slow protein like Casein?  Or doesn't it matter?

 

thx

[David Creekmore]

Hmm, not sure I agree that a vegetarian (who eats eggs and milk) is not getting enough protein. If protein is protein as you say, then who cares if it is from eggs and milk as opposed to meat. 

Yeah, I was assuming he thought vegan.  It's easy to get enough protein, but aside from some forms of soy, dairy and eggs come with a lot of calories and mass of food compared to lean fish or chicken.  I can't eat 3 eggs and a cup of beans for breakfast - it's too much to generate the 30g bolus of protein.

[Connor Davies]

Yeah, I was assuming he thought vegan.  It's easy to get enough protein, but aside from some forms of soy, dairy and eggs come with a lot of calories and mass of food compared to lean fish or chicken.  I can't eat 3 eggs and a cup of beans for breakfast - it's too much to generate the 30g bolus of protein.

Yeah, I always think vegan for some reason.  I guess I don't really see the distinction between eating meat or just eating various animal products.  Plus there are 'vegetarians' that still eat fish, maybe birds....

 

5 eggs = 30g protein.  It's a lot, but still less than a cup of beans.

[Frankincensed]

Agree with the Bip that you do not require 150g of protein. Also, you do not need 30-35g of protein to have a positive response. 35 might be a theoretical "ideal" under the curve but you can get good results with 15-20g as well.  I am 6' and 165 pounds and typically do not eat over 100g/day. My dinners might have 35g but other 2 meals typically 15-25. And snacks are just snacks, not meals.

 

90% of it is overall intake, 10% the rest.  That 10% might matter if you are competitive athlete or an OC indiviual for but for recreational athletes not neccessary to worry about.

[David Creekmore]

Thanks yeah.  Specifically I was referring to this from "Perfect Workout Nutrition"  It's at the end.  I asked Josh specifically in the thread, but he appears to be offline for  a bit.   I was wondering how supported this is - I can't find references to it anywhere else.  It's the first I ever heard of it.

 

To accomplish that as a veggie, and not frequently supplement with protein powder would require big portions of food, mostly with extra carbs I don't want.   PITA
 

 

Larger doses of protein for older trainees:

 

• As we get older, we appear to become less sensitive to dietary protein. A large dose of 30g of high quality protein, whether whey or lean animal meat, has identical effects in senior citizens and 20 year old athletes.
• A 15g dose of the same protein has half the effect in young athletes but zero effect in older athletes (over 60 years old, I believe).

 

So, for you older folks out there: MAKE SURE you are getting your protein in 30-35g doses. If you don't, you may be wasting your protein and missing out on valuable gains.

[Frankincensed]

Are you over sixty? Usually elderly studies are 75+

MPS response is also related to the training intensity and duration typically more in younger folks. Also of course someone who has trained more years will have less response than a newbie. Hormones differ but T and HGH not major factors in MPS. Digestion in elderly may be impaired if course. Are u elderly though?

If you dont get good results @ 1.5g per kg then increase and add 20 to 30 minutes cardio to burn excess calories. Or u can add 5 g bcaa to ur pwo. Though im not sure u will see a lot of fast growth in F series as a rule anyway.

[Frankincensed]

Are you over sixty? Usually elderly studies are 75+

MPS response is also related to the training intensity and duration typically more in younger folks. Also of course someone who has trained more years will have less response than a newbie. Hormones differ but T and HGH not major factors in MPS. Digestion in elderly may be impaired if course. Are u elderly though?

If you dont get good results @ 1.5g per kg then increase and add 20 to 30 minutes cardio to burn excess calories. Or u can add 5 g bcaa to ur pwo. Though im not sure u will see a lot of fast growth in F series as a rule anyway.

[David Creekmore]

Are you over sixty? Usually elderly studies are 75+

MPS response is also related to the training intensity and duration typically more in younger folks. Also of course someone who has trained more years will have less response than a newbie. Hormones differ but T and HGH not major factors in MPS. Digestion in elderly may be impaired if course. Are u elderly though?

If you dont get good results @ 1.5g per kg then increase and add 20 to 30 minutes cardio to burn excess calories. Or u can add 5 g bcaa to ur pwo. Though im not sure u will see a lot of fast growth in F series as a rule anyway.

 

 

No, I'm 45.  Josh suggested 40+ for the 30-35 gram pulses, which again I haven't been confirm/find anywhere else.  But he is so informed most of the time, I am very hesitant to doubt him.

His speculation was that protein sensors in the stomach desensitize over time and that one needs larger pulses to trigger the proper metabolization of protein  

I'm only going for 150g a day, and weigh 155lbs, so it's not a total intake issue.  The hard part, if I were to follow the large pulse protocol is eating 30g of protein in a sitting as a vegetarian and not supplement with powders or eat a ton of soy products.  It's a lot of food, and makes it tough to get the macro ratio I want. 

Yeah, I can definitely do more cardio to burn excess calories, but I'm already doing some of that, so I'd prefer to manage my diet.

Thanks for the responses.  helpful,

 

[Frankincensed]

No, I'm 45.  Josh suggested 40+ for the 30-35 gram pulses, which again I haven't been confirm/find anywhere else.  But he is so informed most of the time, I am very hesitant to doubt him.

His speculation was that protein sensors in the stomach desensitize over time and that one needs larger pulses to trigger the proper metabolization of protein  

I'm only going for 150g a day, and weigh 155lbs, so it's not a total intake issue.  The hard part, if I were to follow the large pulse protocol is eating 30g of protein in a sitting as a vegetarian and not supplement with powders or eat a ton of soy products.  It's a lot of food, and makes it tough to get the macro ratio I want. 

Yeah, I can definitely do more cardio to burn excess calories, but I'm already doing some of that, so I'd prefer to manage my diet.

Thanks for the responses.  helpful,

 

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/451.abstract?ijkey=7592a5c3766f887f8dd286ef19625ef64751c2bd&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

 

refers to a 30g of protein meal haivng the same impact on the fractional sythesis rate in both adults and young people.

It doesn't mean that less wouldn't work as well in older folks, it just so happened they used 30g.   They are pretty clear that there is no impediment to protein sythesis in the elderly, let alone a 45 year old!  

 

Often times 15g is used for studies and elderly respond to it. Eg, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612691/#R6

 

Whether you need 30g depends on how many meals you have in a day, and how much you need to eat in a day to reach 1.5g/kg (my preference) or 2.2g/kg (bodybuilder rule of thumb). If you weigh like 100kg like Josh, then you'll want say 150g//day (or more) and need to break it into 30g (or more) for practical reasons. However if you are 70kg and maybe eating around 100g, then you don't have to.

 

If you are worried, have your biggest meal after the workout you believe has the most muscle building potential. Typically the impact of the workout lasts 4-6 hours which maps to the digestion and absoption time of a pretty big meal. If you are not able to get  70-100g (complete protein) through food over the day or it's too many calories, then supplement.  Honestly I am 75kg and typically get 75-100g and feel that works for me. I can send photos privately I guess!

 

But mainly I found that training and working to avoid muscle loss was enough to stimulate adequate strength gain. Recently I had a coach say I had a high "strength to weight ratio". I'll take that compliment, even though he's comparing me to newbies probably. 

 

I do give you props for going veggie. I enjoy doing it a day or two a week, but more so on a rest or a cardio day.

 

All the best.