Can't do straddle up or V up.

chuchodani said:

Disclaimer: I'm speaking just through my own experiences, I'm not better than anyone, and I don't think I'm more qualified than anyone.

When I started the F series, I was actually able to Full HLL and able to do a L-sit for 24-30s with decent form. And when I did the first PE's of MN I was able to did all of them because of the carryover from HLL and L-sit work. How did I learned to do HLL ? Just starting from the well known progressions, and for L-sit just the same. So, I think it would make sense to work on PE4 because it would have a positive impact on your previous PE's.

That's great! I'm hoping the same thing will happen for me.

I think is a similar experience to Coach's one with HLL and L-sit.

http://board.crossfit.com/archive/index.php/t-4586.html

"Way back when, when I was a beginning gymnast, my first coach had us do no specific ab exercises. Only lots and lots of regular L sits. A 60 second L was the expected standard. 

One day, one of the senior gymnasts challenged me to a hanging leg lift contest on the stall bars (These bars are directly anchored to the wall and do not allow you to lean back at all or to pull down with your lats - all pure core strength). I cranked out ten reps without ever having done the exercise before. 

The basic L sit will build phenomenal stomach strength. 

Yours in Fitness, 
Coach Sommer "

You can do MS series  plus weighted/reaching pancakes. just give some time, my son started out as a relative zombie for a kid when he was in taekwondo a couple years back, dedicated stretching got him to  more mobile state (still quite a zombie in comparison to coach's athletes, but foundation will fix that slowly ).

I think you will find the Middle Split series will work wonders for you. Once you get better at the MS the straddle up will be much easier.

Mark Collins said:

I think you will find the Middle Split series will work wonders for you. Once you get better at the MS the straddle up will be much easier.

I'm doing all 3 of the stretch courses, it's absolutely a flexibility issue.

Yeay, we've established it's a flexibility issue!

And just to reiterate what Zach said, that's why going forward won't help, because other than the first two HLL elements, they require you have more flexibility than the V-Up sequence. And the first two other than being momentarily entertaining, won't do much for your overall progress unless you are working specifically towards HLL.

Cole Dano said:

Yeay, we've established it's a flexibility issue!

 

And just to reiterate what Zach said, that's why going forward won't help, because other than the first two HLL elements, they require you have more flexibility than the V-Up sequence. And the first two other than being momentarily entertaining, won't do much for your overall progress unless you are working specifically towards HLL.

So should I just continue with PE2 as best I can (Currently I'm doing 5x8r, should I drop that down to 3x3r and just repeat the first micro-cycle?), while my flexibility improves or just drop them from my workout entirely (I do 3x10r of PE1 in my warmup)? 

You could add some of the later iMs that address straddle, like the pulses at the end of the workout (or in the workout that does not contain straddle ups if you do the split), perhaps treating them as strength element, or maybe taking some elements of MSS (I find that for me very slow middle split pulls and supine flairs directly address my weakness in  straddle ups).

Add some speed to your straddle-up. Really work those active straddle pulses. Lead with the head. 

Hi Murray,

Did not mean to write that doing F1 was a waste of time, just that you thought this element was a waste for the last year with little progress. I am sure you will get there, especially as you have access to the stretch series. It has pointed out a weakness which you are addressing, that is good.

Murray, I've had some success adding a 60s pancake and a 60s butterfly as "iMs" in addition to 5r Jefferson curls.  Which means I've added 120s of static stretching between straddle up sets.  I do 5 x 8r of straddle ups.  With each rep, I hold at the top and compress as hard as I can until my upper quads and hip flexors start to cramp.

I've been on this PE for 7 to 8 months, but have followed the above approach only for the last two.  In those two months, I've seen dramatic improvement and mastery is finally within reach.  At one time, I considered skipping ahead for some of the reasons you have given.  But ultimately I felt that I should spend my time fixing what I know is holding me back on this -- bad pancake and groin flexibility and weak hip flexors.

Thanks everyone. I'll carry on with straddle ups and supplement with some additional stretching.

I've had some students in the same boat as you, it takes time but it will improve.

I'd like to chime in my two cents on this issue.

I mastered MN/PE1 in about 8-9 weeks after starting foundation.

Straddle ups (MN/PE2) were something else altogether.  Let me just say that it took me a very looong time to get this thing mastered.

Let's just say that even when my mobility got better, being able to do 4 x 9 reps felt like a huuuge accomplishment for me because my core had to get a lot stronger in order to be able to accommodate that volume of straddle up reps.

Even now that I have straddle ups completed (albeit not mastered in the true sense of the word, because even though I can do 5 x 15 reps without losing form, my ROM is still not quite what the athlete demonstrates in the video), I am working on my core to build my compression strength, because I figure the Manna requires one to have not only great mobility, but probably herculean compression strength in the core.

So for me the take away was the straddle ups exposed to me a weakness in my core that I had to work on, as well as general mobility issues that I also had to take care of.

I have a question with these. I can't get my hips to full ROM (up to head height). So, should I work on lower reps (i.e. Block 1) until the ROM gets better, even if I don't end up feeling much burn in the abs, but focus on really squeezing the hips. Or should I keep pushing through to higher blocks and rep ranges, and max the hip flexion on each rep until the hip ROM and flexibility catches up--progressing to higher blocks if I can "achieve" the require sets x reps, even if I don't have true, complete ROM. I've been doing this for about 6-8 months but am I'm trying to figure out a best practices for improving these. I know that Jefferson Curls will help with these. I'm currently only using 55lbs on the IM, but I can get my wrists to my toes, and I feel straddle up is less about pike flexibility and more so the hips (which is lacking, noted by my difficulty with SLS/PE3 and about a year spent on sPL/PE1-im, that I only recently mastered). 

Thanks.

Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

I have a question with these. I can't get my hips to full ROM (up to head height). So, should I work on lower reps (i.e. Block 1) until the ROM gets better, even if I don't end up feeling much burn in the abs, but focus on really squeezing the hips. Or should I keep pushing through to higher blocks and rep ranges, and max the hip flexion on each rep until the hip ROM and flexibility catches up--progressing to higher blocks if I can "achieve" the require sets x reps, even if I don't have true, complete ROM. I've been doing this for about 6-8 months but am I'm trying to figure out a best practices for improving these. I know that Jefferson Curls will help with these. I'm currently only using 55lbs on the IM, but I can get my wrists to my toes, and I feel straddle up is less about pike flexibility and more so the hips (which is lacking, noted by my difficulty with SLS/PE3 and about a year spent on sPL/PE1-im, that I only recently mastered). 

 

Thanks.

Coach's answer to this question was to stay at Week 1, Block 1 until full ROM is achieved.  Because active straddle flexibility is the key here, I do think you should squeeze the hips as hard has possible at the top of each rep.

Like you, I've decided to stay with this exercise until I can match the ROM of the athlete in the video.  But based on some of the mods comments to recent form checks, I wonder if that ROM is required for mastery.  In any case, I've been working on this PE for over a year now, and have tried a number of different approaches.  What has yielded the largest increases in ROM for me was making compression and mobility the focus of my manna work.   On manna days, I do a complex of seated pike lifts, jefferson curls, seated straddle leg lifts, and pancake good mornings.  Every evening, including non-manna days, I do (3x8r) tuck ups, (3x8r) straddle ups, (3x5r) v-ups, and (3x5r) hanging tucks.  I treat this as skill work.

Hey Murray, 

I'm dealing with the same issue as you in terms of getting up into this position with proper ROM. I haven't tried the tips that I'm about to subscribe, but I will apply them tomorrow (in my daily limbering warm-up) and Friday in my Foundation workout, but have you tried doing MN/PE1 in a straddle and then gradually straightening your legs? Since I can't do MN/PE2 with straight legs and full ROM, but I can bring my legs up in MN/PE1 so forcefully that it almost knocks me back. Furthermore, straddle leg lifts has been suggested, but since doing it with straight legs is almost a sheering force on my abs (in the sense that I feel I could give myself a hernia trying to force through these), perhaps doing straddle bent-leg lift holds and gradually straightening the legs in the exercise until they are straight might pay dividends. Another example is what Alessandro mentioned in that while standing you bring one knee as high as possible past 90-degrees while bent and then you flex the lower leg forcefully into what basically resembles a karate kick (Pavel Tsatsouline mentioned this exercise, too, in his book Super Joints). 

So, in short:

- MN/PE1.5 (straddle tucks, with gradual straightening of the legs)

- Seated straddle bent-leg lift holds

- Standing High Kick Flexs

- MN/PE1>im - with more weight and try to use the hips more in this exercise (since you've mastered it already)

- Get your weight up on the Jefferson Curls (I've found compression and Pike are much improved as a result of this)

I'm going to throw these into the mix and see how they work. Given that I've been working on this element for a while and am tired of not seeing some type of progress I'll give these a shot. I've found that approaching the stretch series in this way has been beyond effective and only in the last two weeks (pushing myself through the ROM which I do have and getting comfortable with that instead of pushing beyond this point and thinking that the discomfort and pain I might feel is somehow beneficial). 

Hope this helps. Think I might help with me. I've found that smaller stutter steps can make bigger gains more feasible (found this to be true with my yearlong shoulder issues in all the BAS exercises stemming from biceps and pec tightness)

For MN I'm playing with the later PEs and doing loaded pike and straddle pike for IM. Basically I'm waiting for flexibility to improve enough to continue with the Manna progressions - I'm hoping this will come from the stretch courses.

SLS PEs 2 and 3 really improved my straddle ups.

The supine flairs from MSS are really helpfull, in the way that they teach you to fight for the straight knees (and quite an ab exercise if you do them at Coaches counting pace).

vinca_minor said:

SLS PEs 2 and 3 really improved my straddle ups.

I'm nearly at a good depth with cossacks, definitely a help!

My biggest barrier is rolling my pelvis forward, a pancake is totally beyond me.

Try deep squating in a wide stance every single day for at least 50 days and you will definitely see a great improvement. It is like getting your butt pass through your thighs in this squat with ATP. I prefer 5 minutes of this squat every day. JC don't help me much because it is developing passive flexibility which I already had before starting all this.

I also started to do pike compressions a few times a day will see if that helps.

I also like to do at least 3 reps of this: get in a straddle up top position, grab my shins (depending on flexibility you will want to hold your legs somewhere between ankles and thighs) and press them firmly into my trunk so I get full ROM using hands. Then I release the legs, trying to keep them in place as much as I can I slowly lower them to the ground (10 - 15 sec). This works like magic. I hope after this cycle I will move on to block 2 of MN PE2

I'll try to make my contribution here...I've realized for example with the front split stretch series, that whenever I'm grabbing an object or my feet for a pike stretch I do have much more ROM than when pushing through the movement without grabbing an object. I don't  know the terms...passive and active flexibility? active flexibility equals compression? I really don't now..

Anyhow, for gaining ROM in straddle-ups I think you should work on active flexibility exercises, such as pancake or straddle leg lifts, where you push through the movement, you are not pulled by a external force, if that does make sense....hope it helps!

Vytautas Pilkauskas said:

Try deep squating in a wide stance every single day for at least 50 days and you will definitely see a great improvement. It is like getting your butt pass through your thighs in this squat with ATP. I prefer 5 minutes of this squat every day. JC don't help me much because it is developing passive flexibility which I already had before starting all this.

I also started to do pike compressions a few times a day will see if that helps.

I also like to do at least 3 reps of this: get in a straddle up top position, grab my shins (depending on flexibility you will want to hold your legs somewhere between ankles and thighs) and press them firmly into my trunk so I get full ROM using hands. Then I release the legs, trying to keep them in place as much as I can I slowly lower them to the ground (10 - 15 sec). This works like magic. I hope after this cycle I will move on to block 2 of MN PE2

I've been working on deep squats and my hips in general, I do this every day. I'm making progress but slowly, the frog stretch used to be impossible, it looked more like cat-cow, now things are better.

I've noticed recently that the discomfort has moved from inner thighs to the glutes when I do pancake work, I'm counting this as progress as I unglue new areas, it reveals somewhere else I'm tight.

I'm just carrying on with things, hopefully I'll get there one day.

Hi Murray, have you been able to make progress here? I have been stuck here for a long time too. Stretch series is helping (I think) but it is a very slow process.