Can't do straddle up or V up.

So I'm working on my flexibility but right now I don't have the ROM to do either straddle or V ups. My question is; while I work on my flexibility should I do PE4 onwards or is there a suitable substitute to PE2/3?

Use the search function.  This has come up before.

What Bipocni said.

Assuming you mastered MN PE1>iM, then you have the passive flexibility to do Straddle-Ups, but lack the active flexibility/strength in your hips flexors and abs to do V-Ups. The only way to build active flexibility is to do active flexibility work (which just doing the Straddle-Ups should accomplish).

And no, you should not skip ahead. You can "play" with later movements if you still have energy after your F workout is over, but it should not be dedicated or intensive strength work. Even if you could safely do later progressions you would still be wasting energy on them rather than spending it on the Straddle-Ups like you should be.

I've read almost all the threads on the MN progression. In short there isn't a definitive answer and I'm hoping to hear from those who tried the numerous suggestions and what worked for them.

My problem isn't being able the get into the "final" position (whatever the final consensus for that was...) but even getting my legs off the floor with any sort of pancake is near impossible.

For example I can't perform the supplementary exercise from drillsandskills where he sits in a pancake and lifts his legs.

So to reiterate, what should I do in the meantime while my flexibility improves?

I was doing standing leg extensions but as MN:PE4+ address hip flexor strength am I better off following this progression until I get my pancake and return to PE2?

Trying to sit in a Pancake and lift the legs is a far worse leverage position than the top position of a Straddle-Up. You are essentially trying to lift the legs from the worst possible leverage (with them straight out perpendicular to the line of gravity) at already close to full passive ROM.

In the top position of a Straddle-Up the legs are approaching completely vertical/in line with gravity and thus you have much greater leverage to flex your hips as you near your full passive ROM.

Of course you are going to have difficulty doing straddle active pancakes if you can't even do a Straddle-Up.

The straddle active pancakes could be an ok supplementary Hip flexor strengthening exercise, but you should put most of your effort into the Straddle-Ups themselves. If Coach had felt that Straddle Active pancakes should have been a prerequisite to Straddle-Ups I'm sure he would have put them into the progression accordingly.

Keegan said:

Trying to sit in a Pancake and lift the legs is a far worse leverage position than the top position of a Straddle-Up. You are essentially trying to lift the legs from the worst possible leverage (with them straight out perpendicular to the line of gravity) at already close to full passive ROM.

In the top position of a Straddle-Up the legs are approaching completely vertical/in line with gravity and thus you have much greater leverage to flex your hips as you near your full passive ROM.

Of course you are going to have difficulty doing straddle active pancakes if you can't even do a Straddle-Up.

The straddle active pancakes could be an ok supplementary Hip flexor strengthening exercise, but you should put most of your effort into the Straddle-Ups themselves. If Coach had felt that Straddle Active pancakes should have been a prerequisite to Straddle-Ups I'm sure he would have put them into the progression accordingly.

Would you suggest simply repeating the first micro cycle of PE2 until my flexibility catches up then?

Murray Truelove said:

For example I can't perform the supplementary exercise from drillsandskills where he sits in a pancake and lifts his legs.

So to reiterate, what should I do in the meantime while my flexibility improves?

 

This is a great super basic exercise for your hips.  Most young athletes can perform this, however, after years of not using your hips they've become weak.  Just do it with bent legs and lean back.  Suck up any cramps and keep those legs up!   As your rebuild your hip strength first being lean forward again so you are upright.  Once you can do it upright with bent legs then you may begin to straighten your legs.  Eventually you want to perform this with your bottom and back against a wall and lift your legs at minimum to shoulder height.  

This will most definitely begin to help with your straddle-up and V-up problems.

Straddle-/V-ups are dynamic movements so you should be focusing on your dynamic ROM (which is different from actively lifting your legs into compression). My approach would be to get comfortable with straddle-ups while lying on your back (i.e., only your legs move) and keeping a PPT. Add the situp component when you've achieved sufficient ROM while lying down. Refine, rinse and repeat.

Thanks everyone. I'll keep you updated after my next F1 session.

Murray Truelove said:

Would you suggest simply repeating the first micro cycle of PE2 until my flexibility catches up then?

That is what Josh Solcum and other experienced GST trainees have suggested. You could always just keep repeating Week 3 and then Deload to Week 4 every fourth week as well (depending on how easy/challenging you felt Week 3 was) if you felt like Weeks 1 and 2 were mindnumbingly easy. If you're really pushing the active ROM under control though like you should be, then even Week 1 can have decent intensity.

Murray Truelove said:

Would you suggest simply repeating the first micro cycle of PE2 until my flexibility catches up then?

this is exactly what Coach suggested to TheColin in his thread on Straddle up mobility. just do the volume of week 1-4 until your mobility catches up and turn the mobility/stretching afterwards to focus on whatever is holding back your hip flexion and also, straddle. (a few places for you to investigate mobility in: glutes [including piriformis], inner thighs and hamstrings.) 

Incidentally, I would venture that most people are not actually stretching nearly as hard as they think they are (not accusing anyone, just pointing out that it's easy to get complacent with a given level of effort and not increase it together with abilities). After a serious stretching session, you will know about it the next day. If you feel recharged and 100% nice and supple, no soreness anywhere, congrats! You limbered up perfectly now go back and stretch. Work harder as you get more flexible and stronger; there is no point repeating your workout from 6 months ago, why would you repeat your stretches at the same intensity...?

Ensure you are taking it as seriously as other facets of your strength training, because the time *will* come when you require access to exceptional ROM just to complete a rep of a given movement. Passive is a great start and is fine for MnPE2 (from my expeience), but it's like clearing a path through a forest-- you won't be able to actually move anything through it without putting a road on top of it-- developing active flexibility

(I hope that simile made sense, it did to me :S )

If the exercise isn't that physically challenging aside from rom ( which it shouldn't be if you have mastered pe1 IMO). Then I don't agree with sticking to e first cycle. I would throw in a lot of reps but nothing that tired me out or gtg with t hem so your body becomes accustomed to the movement quicker. Worked for me whileI was increasing my rom through limbering mostly durin the day. Rom isn't perfect but the movement feels natural and flexibility is getting there fast.

I generally did about 3-5 sets of 6-9 reps. For me it just felt alien and the coordination and rom weren't there but after pe1 the strength wasn't the issue. Sometimes I'd throw them in randomly through out the day.

Thanks guys.

Jon: I've experienced this recently, working with Kit's material has really made a difference. I'm going for 1-2 really hard stretches a week. I'm seeing progress but started from such a zombie like ROM.

Ausswe: I'll start on the second micro cycle, I've been doing PE1 for ages now (poor compression and windmills kicked my arse) so I think I've got the necessary core strength to start on week 5.

A great progression was one on Dominic Lacasse's training series. Yo need a partner to do it. Basically you just go into a deep pike strecth (straddle could work as well), and your partner then begins to lift you from your shoulders, trying to roll you backwards. You then try to remain in the pike position while your feet come off ground.

Slightly off topic, but I'm having fun these days playing around with seated leg lifts.  As I mentioned before, I don't follow Foundation, so I'm not super concerned with getting my straddle up right now.  But I'm hoping by building up to a 60s top hold in a seated leg lift, I might be able to finally start getting some productive work done with L sits.  It's frustrating, because I've been able to do them for over a year now but not for a long enough hold time to make them worth training.....

Bump/Update: It's been over a year and I'm still on PE2. With the release of Stretch I'm hoping that my progress towards a pancake improves. 

If I'm honest I feel like I've wasted the last year on this element, I've done just about every variation on PE2 (bent legs, drillsandskills, as prescribed with my max ROM) always for 5 sets but varying reps. All the F1 MN IM's focus on hamstring flexibility yet PE2 requires a straddle. Ironically I have a better chance at PE3 than I do PE2.

I can't think of a good reason not to move onto PE4, 5 and 6, and pair them with IM2, 3 and 4.      

Zach Armijo said:

Any videos Murray? Before I do anything straddle, a good warmup is to roll back into a candlestick, then as you come down, straddle out and reach forward. You can also try out straddle HLLs but not as a replacement yet.

I've got these tomorrow so I'll get a video. I do something similar in my warm up as I do Joe Defancos Limbering 11 (I'll post a link below). My frustration stems from my straddle being far behind my pike flexibility, when everything before and after MN/PE2 requires pike flexibility.

My straddle flexibility is improving thanks to S:MS and Cossack squats, etc. For arguments sake, lets say I'm 3-6 months away from having the prerequisite passive flexibility it seems futile to spend the intervening time on PE2, when I could be working my way towards HLL. I don't think I've gained anything from spending the last year on these, the only improvement coming from Jefferson curls.

Here's my Straddle Up, front and side. I do a couple of reps like the course and then a couple of reps where I put my hands by my hips and try to straddle as wide as possible. At the end of the "side" video I go into my maximum pancake.

Zach Armijo said:

Stretch course for sure and work supplement straddle Jefferson curls as well. Give it some time. Feel free to work towards HLL AFTER you have attempted your Straddle Up work.

Thank you taking the time to give feedback but I've got to ask why I should spend more time on straddle ups when I can't do them? I've been on these over a year with very little to show for it and I don't see that changing until I have the passive flexibility.

I feel my time would be better spent working on PE4, 5 and 6 and keeping SU in my warm up for 3 sets paired with a weighted straddle pike hang (like MN/IM4). 

Zach Armijo said:

Stretch course for sure and work supplement straddle Jefferson curls as well. Give it some time. Feel free to work towards HLL AFTER you have attempted your Straddle Up work.

I'm on the same boat, when you consider supplementary JC should be done?

Zach Armijo said:

V up is the same situation? I would certainly not skip V ups. A staple in any conditioning program. Like I said, work through what you can in Straddle Ups then move on if they don't prove detrimental to your recovery.

 

There is always something we consider a better use of time, but usually not in our best interest for the overall program.

Haven't tried v ups though my pike is better than my straddle. Not to beat a dead horse but PE4 and 5 require a fraction of the flexibility of PE2 and 3 so I might do these first and once S:MS/FS have had a chance to improve my ROM go back to PE2 and 3. I might try a mix of straddle ups and v ups as my warm up. 

Hi Murray,

Do not feel down about this. I am having a similar experience for about the same length of time.  I cannot seem to get over 12 reps, been in this mini-cycle for months. Such is life.

I have found in the past taking a short break helps bust a plateau (say three weeks of deload) or another example, of having to take two weeks off because of illness, followed but a deload week to get back in.

Doing F1 is never time wasted.

Keep at it.

Thanks for the reply Richard, I don't think I'm wasting time with F1, I'm just a little frustrated with PE2, I can't do a compete rep and I'm unsure what do while I wait for my flexibility to catch up.

Progress has been made, just very slowly given that it's been a year. When I first started they looked more like straddle hollow body rocks than straddle ups.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking just through my own experiences, I'm not better than anyone, and I don't think I'm more qualified than anyone.

When I started the F series, I was actually able to Full HLL and able to do a L-sit for 24-30s with decent form. And when I did the first PE's of MN I was able to did all of them because of the carryover from HLL and L-sit work. How did I learned to do HLL ? Just starting from the well known progressions, and for L-sit just the same. So, I think it would make sense to work on PE4 because it would have a positive impact on your previous PE's.