MN/PE2 (straddle-up) question

So this week is week 11 for me on MN/PE2.  I was able to perform 15 reps but as I've mentioned before my straddle rom at the top of each rep is fairly pitiful.  Here's a video of my last set of 5:

 

 

I want to know what everybody thinks I should do after this and the deload week coming up - do I just reset back to week 9 and repeat this 4 week mini cycle until my straddle ROM is much higher (could take a loooong time)?  or is the ROM of the straddle not terribly important here (I doubt this is true) because it is a strength element and not a mobility element, and so I should move on to MN/PE3?

 

I'm all ears!

And, um, how did you get a copy of Foundation 10 weeks before we did??

Jerry Mangona said:

And, um, how did you get a copy of Foundation 10 weeks before we did??

by week 11 I mean that I started MN/PE2 at week 9 of the 12 week cycle, not that it's my 11th week working it - it's my 3rd.

I'm running a 4 week training cycle on it because of my bad flexibility. I have snapping hip syndrome which doesn't make this any easier.

 

I think you should spend a 4 or 8 week cycle on this while really working on your straddle flexibility.

There's a whole load of stuff for flexibility that can be found on the forum - working on the compression above would probably help.

You've to work much more on your compression/straddle flexibility, manna it's all about, compression; it is not just do it, it is do it right. Besides, like I read above, you tend to use a little momentum to get up, so If I were you I would back to first weeks to create Foundation; in this case, straddle flex and no use of momentum. Low quality reps.

I think Adriano is correct, you should consider building on quality reps - that means that you were likely overly ambitious when deciding to start that exercise at week 9

If you look again at the video in F1, you'll notice that the athlete has his feet at head level at the top of the movement.

That is why, even though I could do the reps of week 11 i decided to start at week 1.
The strength element coupled with mobility element is just too usefull and I have never had that in my training and by starting from beginning I'm getting more quality work.

I am in similar situation than you..I will appreciate any advices, supplementary work to allow me to lift my legs higher in straddle

 

I think many people will have problem with this one..it is easier than Mn/Pe3 for me

Cannister, its simple; coming back to week 1 looking for quality reps it will make your manna work much better in the long term.

 

Week 1 has 3x3, that may sound funnny and so low, but if you do 9 reps trying to achieve that straddle flexibility on the video, you'll progress infinitely. What's more, I'll stay on week 1 until I got that flexibility or at least some more.

 

Your work is not "reps", of course you can do 15 reps, but how? That's the question. It's not all about reps, but every rep has to be perfect in order to make a foundation; on this exercise, that foundation it's straddle dinamic flex.

 

Again, your work is not reps, is flexibility. So start to working on straddle flexibility, dinamic (above all), static, etc. 

 

 

Notice that I keep work on MN/PE1 compression knees to chest, even though since the first day I did mastery, but NOT perfect mastery, because I used momentum and not the amount of compression required.

Adriano Flo said:

Cannister, its simple; coming back to week 1 looking for quality reps it will make your manna work much better in the long term.

 

Week 1 has 3x3, that may sound funnny and so low, but if you do 9 reps trying to achieve that straddle flexibility on the video, you'll progress infinitely. What's more, I'll stay on week 1 until I got that flexibility or at least some more.

 

Your work is not "reps", of course you can do 15 reps, but how? That's the question. It's not all about reps, but every rep has to be perfect in order to make a foundation; on this exercise, that foundation it's straddle dinamic flex.

 

Again, your work is not reps, is flexibility. So start to working on straddle flexibility, dinamic (above all), static, etc. 

 

Notice that I keep work on MN/PE1 compression knees to chest, even though since the first day I did mastery, but NOT perfect mastery, because I used momentum and not the amount of compression required.

So what I've been attempting to communicate is that if I were to go sit down and try to do 3 of my most perfect reps possible with maximum compression in the straddle I would be able to perform more reps with exactly the same quality and form.  I will admit to myself that I would not be able to perform 5x15 reps at this quality, but I would think that more TUT would accelerate my straddle compression development, no?

 

I'm not so arrogant as to deny that the quality of my work needs to improve after seeing myself performing the reps - but I wonder if starting at week 5 would be more beneficial (4x6r) than week 1(3x3r)?

 

I'll give the two set schemes a try tonight with an emphasis on quality and see how things go.  It is difficult working against a lack of active flexibility.  I never expected it to improve overnight (or in the 3 weeks that I've been working on it) but I had hoped for more progress than I've achieved with it so far.  Humbling, as usual with F1.

 

 

Also I hope that when you say you will "stay at week 1" you mean that you'll repeat 4 week mini-cycles starting at week 1 until you gain more flexibility - I think remaining at 3x3 reps indefinitely ignores the progressive loading benefits built into F1.

I think starting at week 1 would have been a better choice. It gives you the extra time to practice the mobility elements and the low strength training volume really allows one to focus on the finer details rather than possibly getting sloppy trying to hit the higher numbers.

 

How is your mastery of MN/PE1 - are you able to achieve decent tuck height and compression? It seems from your initial post that you were really hoping somebody would say to just move on to PE3. But I am wondering if your time would be better spent improving PE1.

 

I know it isn't what you want to hear, but I believe Coach designed these progressions to address things like this and my guess is if his athlete was having trouble completing the reps with the proper form they would back down the progression scale until proper form could be achieved. 

 

- Chris

In your instance, it is not strength which is holding you back; but mobility.  The advice you have been given is correct.  Go back to the Week 1 and focus on seriously improving the quality of the iM.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

chobbs said:

I think starting at week 1 would have been a better choice. It gives you the extra time to practice the mobility elements and the low strength training volume really allows one to focus on the finer details rather than possibly getting sloppy trying to hit the higher numbers.

 

How is your mastery of MN/PE1 - are you able to achieve decent tuck height and compression? It seems from your initial post that you were really hoping somebody would say to just move on to PE3. But I am wondering if your time would be better spent improving PE1.

 

I know it isn't what you want to hear, but I believe Coach designed these progressions to address things like this and my guess is if his athlete was having trouble completing the reps with the proper form they would back down the progression scale until proper form could be achieved. 

 

- Chris

 

I really wasn't hoping to hear "move on to PE3" - I know I'm lacking in mobility here and wanted to know what the best way to improve it was.  As far as my PE1 ability - I have full compression, knees to chest.  Straddle compression is a completely different mobility restriction for me.

 

Coach Sommer said:

In your instance, it is not strength which is holding you back; but mobility.  The advice you have been given is correct.  Go back to the Week 1 and focus on seriously improving the quality of the iM.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

Thank you for your response coach - I was hoping you might chime in.  The integrated iM work for this element - the Jefferson Curls - helps straddle compression?  Would adding any supplemental straddle compression work, such as the exercises suggested by Hercules or Adriano above, be beneficial?

- Jefferson Curls will begin to address your current lack of hamstring mobility.

 

- Supplemental mobility work may always be added after the workout is completed (not inserted into the workout as this will interfere with the correct workout structure) as long as it does not interfere with the primary prescribed iM.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

- Jefferson Curls will begin to address your current lack of hamstring mobility.

 

- Supplemental mobility work may always be added after the workout is completed (not inserted into the workout as this will interfere with the correct workout structure) as long as it does not interfere with the primary prescribed iM.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

Fantastic.  This kind of definitive direction is exactly what I needed.  Thank you, and everyone else for your suggestions.

So I've put together some photos of my progress with this element.  It has been slow going and I'm not sure how much I've actually made.  I'm thinking of trying this element after a good pike/pancake flexibility session to see how much that might be holding me back.

 

 

The degree to which I lean back is pretty much different in each photo, which makes the pike improvement hard to judge.  After putting this together I definitely can see from the model that I should be sitting all the way up, so that's something I'll be doing from here on out.

 

I wish I could see how wide the athlete's legs are straddled - from the angle I really can't tell.  I don't know if I should be striving for a wider straddle in combination with more pike or not.

I find that my work quality on the MN PE exercises is HEAVILY dependent on two things:

 

1) stretching before I start work sets: I start off with standing pike work, and then I do some straddle pike while standing, and then I do it on the ground. I stretch my hip flexors in between each set. I pretty much spend 60s in each stretch, so this probably takes 6-7 minutes.

 

2) It is very important to activate your core, especially from belly button to pubis (the bone at the bottom of the front of your pelvis, where your junk is), BEFORE you start moving up in to the exercise. This should be the very first thing you do. It is hard to see, but this is what is being done in the videos. To do this, pretend like you're trying to touch your pubis to your belly button. NOT to your ribs. Try to bring the belly button and pubis together. This will take practice, but it is very worthwhile.

 

Failure to stabilize the spine will cause your body to limit what you can do in this exercise as protection against high force, high velocity spinal flexion. Activate as explained in #2, and you should see improvements. If you are already doing this, then #1 will be important for you.

trying out this move every once in a while has uncovered something that i didn't think was such a big deal but was super annoying. I have snapping hip syndrome too, especially in extension. 

 

could working a round of Jefferson curls, along with some hip stability exercises followed by what, could I do? 

Keilani:

 

You will need to get a foam roller and/or three lacrosse balls (tape or otherwise bind two of them together to make a double lacrosse ball, I just tied mine together inside a sock and it works great... there are also double ball rollers being sold now commercially), and you'll want to also do a feet-together frog stretch.

 

Frog stretch: Start on hands and knees. Put soles of feet together. Keeping soles of feet together, and maintaining a slightly hollow body, spread your knees as wide as you can. Now, keeping your feet together, start moving your body forward as if you are going to lay down on your stomach. Your back will try to arch, do NOT let it arch.

 

When you reach a spot of tension, hold it for 2 minutes, and that's it. Do this a couple times a day.

 

For the rolling:

 

I am using a rumble roller, which I got yesterday in the extra firm, and holy f-ing crap, it is exactly what I needed!  For IT band -related work, it is significantly better than the lacrosse balls, but the balls work quite well on their own. So does a traditional foam roller. Whatever you use, you will need to use it to separate the tissues (create relative movement) so just mindless rolling won't do much. A good start is to stay on each area of tension for 2 minutes, and then find the next area (which might be 1/2 inch away) and do this all over again. I'm going to make some videos soon to explain how this works, and how to do it properly, but you can probably figure out most of this on your own

 

Kelly Starrett's idea of using a strong posterior band distraction during the hip flexor stretch is excellent. I will also explain this eventually, but you can see some pictures in his new book.

 

Aside from him being, in my opinion, kind of clueless about planche, which he talks about very briefly (and wrongly, in my opinion) on page 56, the book is really excellent for learning how to do basic movements correctly, including body positioning, but most importantly you will learn a LOT about how to do various rehabilitative tissue mobilizations. I got this off of Amazon, and I will never, ever type the title because it is just not a good title in my opinion, but the book is made to last just about forever with everyday usage, and there's more than enough practical application to justify the 35-ish dollar price tag.

 

It's not perfect, but nothing every will be. You'll want to ignore most everything he says about "muscle ups" and other GST related stuff, but the rest is really quite good.

I have also just finished reading this book named after a big cat

I have to say that I agree with the above endorsements, albeit that I'm coming from a much less knowledgeable background

Joshua Naterman said:

(...) pubis (the bone at the bottom of the front of your pelvis, where your junk is) (...)

 

ROFL... 

Seriously? Apple maps is not ready for prime time...  B) 

Here's a progress update on this... I don't feel like I'm making much - I will admit that I seem much more controlled in the movement than my original video, but my ROM hasn't improved very much at all.

 

Cannister said:

Here's a progress update on this... I don't feel like I'm making much - I will admit that I seem much more controlled in the movement than my original video, but my ROM hasn't improved very much at all.

I remember Jon(Charm) making a point to use the award winning ass tension to make it smoother, i've tried this and can get two more inches with slightly more controlol than not. definitely something good to know before entering the PE but still

also, its lookin good!

what week are you on?

I've been revisiting this one lately (see https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11720-supplementary-active-flexibility-for-mn2-haters/ ).

Part of it is 'commiting to the movement. You aren't sitting up all the way, although it looks as if you are going about as high as you can before your chest caves a little (could just be you tensing at the top, don't focus on that bit atm). You need to sit up all the way (that you can), lift UP and OUT, and CREASE. I find that after performing this exercise my thighs are the bit that feels the strain. Think Lsit lifts ( as in lifting, not leaning back), think straddle L hold with that 'lift' from hips and ?biceps femoris?.

 

Also, COOOOMMIIIIIIIIT. And stretch. And do lots of active straddles. Which I'm sure you're doing already, but keep at them with a will. Once you nail it, you won't look back, and you are/will be plenty strong enough to rep it out once the flexibility/compression comes.

 

 

KeilaniG said:

I remember Jon(Charm) making a point to use the award winning ass tension to make it smoother, i've tried this and can get two more inches with slightly more controlol than not. definitely something good to know before entering the PE but still

also, its lookin good!

what week are you on?

Also, ass-tension. That is all.

 

PS; Actually not quite all. With these and V-Ups it's easier to breathe out while sitting up, so that I can compress at the top with empty lungs (dunno whether or not you're already doing this).