RC/P1 - I should have this, but I don't. Programing question

Hey everyone, I've just started foundations and am testing out my mastery levels to see where I'm going to start. In regards to RC/PE1, I can do a chin up with 50kg added (5x1), and can knock out 15 pull ups, but RC/PE1 has been difficult.

When I first testing first I got 15, 10, 10, 10, 10 (reps) and I decided that I didn't hit mastery because I was getting use to hinging at the hip, so I was rowing my whole body more than I needed too. So I tried again today after hitting 5x15 push ups. On RC/PE1 I get 15, 15, 7 then my forearms gave up (I think).

I'm sure I am strong enough to reach RC/PE6 quickly but this hinge row is standing in my way.

So my question: Should I hold the program of FL, sPL, HBP then RC and try to push my endurance up OR go for mastery on a rest day so that I can (hopefully) move on to RC/PE2 and beyond?

I know that I seem impatient, but I lose strength and muscle mass very easily so I don't want to slide back too far in order to get RC/PE1 after all the other exercises that day. For example, I lost 7 cm off my calf in 6 weeks when it was in cast, and another time I watched my quad get smaller after a few days with a swollen knee.

Leave your ego at the door!

No matter how strong you think your are if you cant master RC/PE1 you better put in the training required to do so.

Also you should not test for mastery on seperate days. You should be able to achive mastery on your normal training days (all of week 11)

I second J.B!

GST isn't the same as weight training. I used to do a lot of weights and was fairly strong - however I've not been great at the RC progressions either.

I think it draws on stamina a lot more, and doing 5x15 hinge rows is very different to doing say a 5x5 program of weighted chinups.

Also GST is big on form - which is one of the reasons I'm finding it hard. I was doing incline rows, but realized my form was off. I'm now doing hinge rows again - and they are way harder than I expected. Patience I suppose!

Blair Norwood said:

I know that I seem impatient, but I lose strength and muscle mass very easily so I don't want to slide back too far in order to get RC/PE1 after all the other exercises that day. For example, I lost 7 cm off my calf in 6 weeks when it was in cast, and another time I watched my quad get smaller after a few days with a swollen knee.

Watch out, Coach may take offense when you compare the RC progressions to spending time in a cast. You won't lose muscle being that active, and besides, you're not planning on staying at RC1 forever, are you? 

J.B said:

Also you should not test for mastery on seperate days. You should be able to achive mastery on your normal training days (all of week 11)

I haven't thought this is the case... what about the case where your exercises are in different months?

I would test when fresher, though I may be wrong and am ready for any required re-education. 

Blair Norwood said:

On RC/PE1 I get 15, 15, 7 then my forearms gave up (I think).

 

I'm sure I am strong enough to reach RC/PE6 quickly but this hinge row is standing in my way.

You're almost strong enough to get mastery.  The weak link is your brachioradialis.  This muscle provides enormous protective benefits to your elbow during straight arm work, and is generally weak in otherwise strong weight trained individuals.

Trust me, spending some time building up the strength in these puppies is going to be very helpful for you later down the line.  If you're that worried about losing muscle mass in your back, include a couple sets of pullups after your foundation workout is done.

Loosing mass might be not a bad thing for gymnastics assuming that you keep/improve your strength and mobility.

You will not lose muscle if you are working on building up strength that you do not yet possess. And the Foundation program is designed to strengthen all links in your kinetic chain both from a strength and mobility standpoint.

That you cannot complete mastery of RC PE1 means that you have found a weak link and need to spend some time strengthening it. You are fairly close though, so a few cycles of weeks 9-12 should get you there (assuming your form is correct, which I would advise you video and compare to the course video to be sure of).

Remember that the course is meant to get us to the point where we can start working on serious gymnastic work with perfect form (which almost no other GST program on the market today really emphasises) WITHOUT injuring ourselves in the process. That means we need to trust Coach and the program that if we can't perform mastery of a given PE or it's accompanying iM (even if we can perform mastery of some later PE's and iM's), then skipping ahead may lead to either injury or poor form on even later skills.

Thanks everyone, looking around I have seen different instances of people saying either stick to the program directly, or train your weakest element first. I think next week I will try RC before HPB (got to get my push ups smoother for mastery so its fairly high volume).

Bipocni said:

You're almost strong enough to get mastery.  The weak link is your brachioradialis.  This muscle provides enormous protective benefits to your elbow during straight arm work, and is generally weak in otherwise strong weight trained individuals.

 

Trust me, spending some time building up the strength in these puppies is going to be very helpful for you later down the line.  If you're that worried about losing muscle mass in your back, include a couple sets of pullups after your foundation workout is done.

I think this answer may best describe my stiuation, in the past I have felt a little elbow tendonitis coming on (lots of pull ups, chin ups and grip training). Some reverse curls helped. If I don't hit mastery on Monday with RC before HBP, week 9 will be the place for me to start.

I am in the same boat as you (almost BW weighted pull up, 25 strict PU on a good day) and also had hopes to master PE1 on the fly. First two sets of 15 felt like nothing and then hit the wall half way through 3rd set. I started again from week 5. Now at week 9 and even though I am barely able to finish prescribed reps with strict technique there is progress every time. This exercise is not about large muscles but very small you might not even feel, but once they fail it is all over. Try to keep close attention to small details of demo video, there are some small details that make it a bit easier, for example rotating your forearm full 90 degrees does not seem like helping at all in first few sets then becomes very important in the last few reps when you are ready to give up. Hope that helps.

Given the particularity and the strangeness of this exercise than the typical row for the back I think it would be nice and interesting if our Coach would be so kind to write something about the motives and purposes of it, and it would help us to train it better .

For me it is not a simple easier version of a ring row, it seems more that its purpose is the training of the extrarotatory muscles of the shoulders.

I noticed that if I keep my elbows a little below the line of the shoulders, the effect of the exercise changes and interests more the middle trapezius, I would like to have an official indication about the correct height at which to hold the elbows.

Stefano Baral said:

Given the particularity and the strangeness of this exercise than the typical row for the back I think it would be nice and interesting if our Coach would be so kind to write something about the motives and purposes of it, and it would help us to train it better .

 

For me it is not a simple easier version of a ring row, it seems more that its purpose is the training of the extrarotatory muscles of the shoulders.

 

 

On another post I saw Coach say not to over think it, it’s just a simple row progression. This makes me think we do not have to have to 'exactly' follow the athlete in the video. I'm working mine with arm positions similar to the other row variations.

In my opinion doing so you perform a much different exercise.

Stefano Baral said:

In my opinion doing so you perform a much different exercise.

Coach Sommer said:

You guys are seriously overthinking these.  

 

Adust the rings so that your glutes are off the ground.  Hinging at the hips, row/pull up while keeping the glutes off the ground and then return back to the starting position.  Complete the required number of reps.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14656-rcpe1-when-did-this-change/?hl=%2Bwhen+%2Bdid+%2Bthis+%2Bchange

Stefano Baral said:

Given the particularity and the strangeness of this exercise than the typical row for the back I think it would be nice and interesting if our Coach would be so kind to write something about the motives and purposes of it, and it would help us to train it better

It's because it resembles this:

Blair:  You might also be struggling with this because you might be performing the iM incorrectly.  It's supposed to be performed one arm at a time, not both.

Although after reading your post about tendonitis, I don't think this is the case.

When I first attempted this progression I was having elbow problems from german hangs and pullups.  I thought I hit mastery (the old video was performed seated) and my forearms nearly exploded.  Seriously, I couldn't straighten my arms for days.

You need strong elbows to see your way through this one.  Fortunately, it was also the perfect rehab for my elbows after I cleaned up my form.

Bipocni said:

Blair:  You might also be struggling with this because you might be performing the iM incorrectly.  It's supposed to be performed one arm at a time, not both.

 

Although after reading your post about tendonitis, I don't think this is the case.

 

When I first attempted this progression I was having elbow problems from german hangs and pullups.  I thought I hit mastery (the old video was performed seated) and my forearms nearly exploded.  Seriously, I couldn't straighten my arms for days.

 

You need strong elbows to see your way through this one.  Fortunately, it was also the perfect rehab for my elbows after I cleaned up my form.

I'm doing it one arm at a time, though maybe I'm pushing too hard, I have ok lat flexablitiy so maybe I'm leaning too hard so I can feel the stretch and that is frying the forearms quite a bit. Just watched the video again, and I sit back much further.

My elbows are much stronger now, it was maybe 6 months ago that I was having problems, but this program will likely make them much more bullet proof.

Also, wathcing the video of the GMB guy, thats about where I'm pulling too when I do the rows.

I continue to be convinced that in keeping your elbows so low you are doing a different exercise from the one shown in the video, try for yourself the difference and then I think you will have at least some doubts.

The height at wich the elbovs are opened back makes a big difference in determining wich muscles are involved.

Blair: the Coach didn't write to pull/row in whatever manner we like.

Bipocni: thank you for the tip but I think that the ascend movement in that exercise  it is mainly achieved thanks to the force of gravity and the final position is not the one of the hinge row video.

Ste'

Let me also chime in here on RC/PE1.

When I first started Foundation 1, I didn't have any rings and so I would skip RC/PE1 on the days that it was scheduled.

When my rings finally arrived, I decided to test this element for mastery, thinking that it was going to be a breeze.

Like many, I figured that since I could do a fairly decent number of pull ups -- though not the incredulous 25 that RF_Guy was able to pull off! -- RC/PE1 wouldn't be too much of a problem.

I don't think I even managed six reps on my first attempt of mastery!

Perplexed, I re-checked the height of rings, distance from the ground, etc., figuring that there had to be a set-up issue that was hampering my ability to do this "very easy" PE.

I re-tried it after re-checking all this stuff, and again failed to do more than six reps. (If that.)

Neither did it help much that whenever I would try this element, I would feel a slight discomfort in my head, almost like a very slight dizziness, and I just started "blowing off" RC.

I had such a bad attitude towards it that I think there was one month when I completely skipped doing it, with the excuse that "I didn't have enough time" for it.

Long story short, I've now come to love this element, and very much look forward to doing it on the RC/PE1 days.

I guess that's what Foundation one does to you. You first resist. Then you accept humility. Then you accept the challenge. Then you start to love the element. Then you achieve mastery.  (In that order)

Bipocni, many thanks for adding some clarity on the brachioradialis muscle (I'm soon going to be an anatomist!) which perfectly makes sense, and now I can see why this PE, together with its IM, completely fries my forearms.

I think accepting humility is quite a theme in these forums! I tried RC/PE1 thinking it would be easy - how wrong I was!

Bipocni said:

You're almost strong enough to get mastery.  The weak link is your brachioradialis.  This muscle provides enormous protective benefits to your elbow during straight arm work, and is generally weak in otherwise strong weight trained individuals.

 

I just googled that muscle, and that's exactly what burns when I do it!

~Atticus said:

....Bipocni, many thanks for adding some clarity on the brachioradialis muscle....

Hehe.  It's the only muscle I actually name.

15,15,15,15,8

I only made it through set 4 with shear grit. I had my zen face on the whole way, but man I was running toward failure so hard. What a nut shot to the ego. I think I could have pushed through two more if thats what it took for mastery but damn those last reps hurt.

My plan moving forward is just to edge closer to mastery every week (hopefully) even if that means adding one rep per week to that last set, half volume on deload weeks of course.

Push ups suffered being last 15,15,15,10,10. Need more push up endurance too. That shouldn't be too hard to get, few weeks maybe.

It is getting better! I think I could have passed mastery today. 2nd day of week 10 it felt MUCH easier than ever before.