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Started by Bipocni, January 14, 2014 · 76 Replies · 8,880 Views
thecolin said:Personally, this is the balance I struggle to find. Max effort with perfect form. I'm never quite sure how to balance the two. I feel I can do more, but not without sacrificing quality.
I'm the same. I suppose it helps a lot having a coach watching you during your sets to see exactly when form breaks. It's not easy to do that when you are on your own.
Only 7 months on SL pe1?
i have to disagree with your POV, i started arch body hold on the 1/12/2012 and i mastered it on 25/09/2013, the i starte the ABR and i got an annoyng injury but this is another story.
i'm taking trace of all my mastered elements. unfortunately my progress on certain elements became better as my HS1 mobility was improving.
And i'm not sure that you have tried all the stragies to overcome this problem. i want to show to you on what i've worked to improve my abh when i was in a stall situation:
-increase the shoulders flexion stretch
-increase the toracic flexibiltiy
-increase the lumbar spine mobility
-increase the shinbone muscles flexibility
-increase the ileo psoas flexibiltiy
-increase quads flexibility
-increase the abs flexibility
-increase hamstring and calves strength
-use micro cycle
-increase cervial neck flexibility.
Same word for RC/PE1, i lower down me ego when i wasn't able to perform 10 hige rows in a row...then now i can do 40-50 in a row as a warm up. have you tried to stretch you biceps? more flexible muscles are muscles that can generate more strength.
So what i've done was analyze my weak points and find a solution.
I don't completely agree it's a lack of effort or tolerance of discomfort that's lacking. It's more the complete concious awareness of form while exerting oneself. Example ,for me, pushing through on the last fw reps of hbp/pe2 while being aware of keeeping ppt or at least neutral. Very different to using weights where a lot less concentration is needed on the rest of your movement patterns, but then that's why I like it why exagerrate your strength in one area only to compensate in another.
alex87 said:Only 7 months on SL pe1?
7 months on the same week.
Bipocni said:7 months on the same week.
There lies your problem.
Let me just say something i learned a while ago. Don't take it the wrong way just use it.
"only a fool does the same thing and expects different results" -Benjamin Franklin
Look guys. You can't assume if you keep doing something it will magically get better. Strive to gain something each day even if you only learn another thing not to do. The correct thing would be to reset to the beginning. Or if you tried that take several videos and try to determine what's wrong. Put op a video of you trying an entire set as hard as you can and maybe we can help.
I'm tired of hearing all these complaints about foundation not being individualized enough. Search out your weaknesses and address them. That's your individualization. Also more individualization comes later. Right now everything is weak. That's why it's called foundation. Not pinnacle not mastering gymnastic strength but FOUNDATION. Everyone wants me to make them a routine. I get asked this on a daily basis. The truth is foundation covers pretty much everything. Don't try and take things out because you aren't able to address them and call it INDIVIDUALIZATION.
And I agree you might know your body better but you don't understand Gymnastic Strength Training™ as well as coach so trying to change the program most likely won't help.
That's my experience.Coach Sommer said:I will admit that it helps you to remain focused when I am standing over you.
In all seriousness, it is an ongoing process.
This may be the most valuable lesson that people learn from the GB Seminars; how to work hard without giving up and without sacrificing quality.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
And yep, sometimes that means cramping and shaking and swearing. Rc/pe6? You hold until your chin slips below the bar, not until your forearms burn and you want to drop down. ABH? You hold until your feet and hands touch the ground and you try to keep them off until the time is up.
You dont count it until it stays in good ROM and without shaking of course, but quality failure means genuine slipping out of margin of acceptable ROM due to physical inability, not cutting a set short out of discomfort.
Sometimes it sucks. That passes quickly because my word does the body adapt quicker than you think and slower than you want. No surprise there. But discomfort != failure and it's important to go straight through and learn to work hard and sublimate a couple minutes of OH GOD THE CRAMPS for GST success and a body that doesn't panic when it's asked to work harder than it's used to.
B, why not take a week off training and reading about training, go clear your head, and see how it looks in the cold light of day?
I've talked about this before but I think it bears repeating.
I think that SL/PE1 is a special beast in that it is way too advanced for many of us to start on. To me, trying to master SL/PE1 in the first three months of Foundation seems to be the equivalent to jumping straight to PE5 in the front lever progressions. Some people like Jon can manage it, but they usually had already been working on theses movements for quite some time prior to starting Foundation.
I think many people would benefit from breaking SL/PE1 into easier elements and working on those. Making slow but steady progress with easier elements that are within your reach is much more motivating than floundering on a movement that is beyond your grasp for 9 months or more.
alex87 said:
Same word for RC/PE1, i lower down me ego when i wasn't able to perform 10 hige rows in a row...then now i can do 40-50 in a row as a warm up. have you tried to stretch you biceps? more flexible muscles are muscles that can generate more strength.
So what i've done was analyze my weak points and find a solution.
Alex87,
Can you share some of the tricks to the trade that you used to tackle RC/PE1?
This, together with HBP/PE2, are my current nemeses.
The tric to tackling any exercises in foundation would be
1) consistency and effort.
2) posting a video on here for people to let you know if you are doing it right.
3) consistency and effort.
Daniel Burnham said:They me just say something i learned a while ago. Don't take it the wrong way just use it.
I'm tired of hearing all these complaints about foundation not being individualized enough. Search out your weaknesses and address them.
I don't think you have any grounds to assume that that's not what a lot of us are doing. So far I haven't read anything here about balancing effort with form that I'm not already doing, and have been doing since I attended a seminar (here, or in Joshua's post).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that when you started gymnastics, you were able to do things like ABH and other basic elements in very short order? Is that the case or am I misinformed?
Consistency is the key, but you nee to think out of the schema. for the foundations 1 the exercises have some weak points, you need to find them out.
Biceps, forearms strength and lats strength. For the perceived effort the F1 is probably biceps conditioning more then the F2,F3,F4 (mmmmmmm F4 is killing brachialis more then sharks).
Flexibility is not only a matter of increase rom, more split etc, it's about strength. Muscle strength is proportional to muscles length. If you have short belly muscles for your nature or simply because you do not perform stretch , probably try to stretch more, in this way less protein units will exert (with the time) the same strength will less energy consumption.
For the grip you need to resist.
My experience was that before F1 i wasn't able to grab a bar with my hand and stay up for more then 8-10 seconds. Now, under F4 i can stay 30 seconds on one arms, change arms, shaking the other then 30 seconds more for each arms (ok i perfom 140-150 kg deadlift, this helps a lot, but it's always a matter of specificity, hang yourself it is not the same of hang a bar).
probably the following tips is out F series but it is helpful for people who has low biceps conditioning: perform the hing rows on an inclined surface from the ground (about 30-40° ). this build up gradually the strength for the biceps and will take you away from stall to much into the same element and become nervous. this will take more time of course, but are both important the journey and the reward.
the secret is really NO REST NO REST NO REST NO REST.
For the HBP i was stronger to complete at least 40 reps in a row. i used different approach over the ppp. for example i noticed that when it's time to overcome some stall point and the deload week is coming, is better (for me) to not cut in half the intensity , but use a 75% of the intensity especially if the elements is performed more time during the week. Again here stretch you chest a lot.
Coach Sommer said:If someone is of at least average physical ability and they are not making progress; there is usually one culprit responsible. They are not working hard enough. Plain and simple.
What I noticed during this past seminar in London.
- Good people with good potential.
- Bright, disciplined and talented.
- However some had been stuck for far too long on some of the easier elements.
Why?
Primarily there was a huge discrepancy between their idea of hard work/intensity and mine. They thought they were working hard, however in reality they were working well within their comfort zone.
Other than technical details, much of the weekend was spent teaching/showing/demonstrating to them that they were capable of far more physical effort than they had previously thought.
Experiencing discomfort is not a good indicator that you are working at your capacity. I am personally not concerned with your comfort. Nor should you be. If your body is physically capable of continuing to perform without an adverse affect on form or tempo; you need to keep on cranking.
Your body is a tool. Use it.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
p.s. Yes, it is important to be able to distinguish between the pain of fatigue and the pain of injury (a completely separate discussion); however for most people this is not the issue. They have simply never worked hard enough previously to be inured to the momentary discomforts that accompany serious physical training.
I agree and disagree a little with Coach in this case.
I like a lot F1 and H1. I've bought them both and i began following it in a religiously peace.
In my case, my activities are paired with university, work, training myslef and coaching others. Is really demanding.
I've put the volume fairly low as my body needs it a lot, my progress isn't plateauing, but it's slow. I had to modify and follow a differente programation for achieving mastery.
It's working, yes, it's working, but different. At least in myself.
Hard work works, yes, but no always you can give the HARD work.
F1 and H1 are the minimum for achieving the rom and the rep/range for achieving good strength levels, but also can be a little frustrating to somebody that can't advance as fast as the linear progression that is planned in mastery templates.
In my case i love F1 and have mastered some of the PE's, but in other i'm stuck (pseudo planche leans and ppp) not due to lack of strength, but due to wrists mobility issues. It's like comparing someone who has very bad hips and can't fully go atg squat and hoping him to squat several times.
it's just my opinion, didn't know how completely express it. F1 is not mandatory, it's a program, it works, but sometimes it needs the different modifications in order to couple to a person lifestyle.
Greetings.
alex87 said:perform the hing rows on an inclined surface from the ground (about 30-40° ).
You mean feet elevated and butt still "on" the floor, or butt and shoulders higher?
Coach Sommer said:I will admit that it helps you to remain focused when I am standing over you.
In all seriousness, it is an ongoing process.
This may be the most valuable lesson that people learn from the GB Seminars; how to work hard without giving up and without sacrificing quality.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
It really is different when there is a coach watching over you. (one of the reason why people get trained in the Globo gym, CF boxes)
People feel secured when someone besides them checks the form and is strict about it.
When training, it helps when you visualize that there are people other than yourself who trains harder & pushes for the extra mile. (GB athletes, olympians, etc.)
Then the battle within yourself comes. (you're the only one who can deal with yourself)
Joakim Anderson said:You mean feet elevated and butt still "on" the floor, or butt and shoulders higher?
elevate the upper body makes the leverage easier
Alex87,
Many thanks for the tip.
I'm going to try elevated hinge rows -- my own interpretation of RC/PE 0.5 -- and when I succeed at doing 5 x 15 of these elevated rows, I'll then begin RC/PE1 and see how that goes.
Best,
So I figured this was worth following up on...
Bipocni:
Did you end up managing to overcome the plateau? Were the modifications you made to your training effective?
Cheers!
red1392 said:So I figured this was worth following up on...
Bipocni:
Did you end up managing to overcome the plateau? Were the modifications you made to your training effective?
Cheers!
Hi red1392,
I'm not Bipocni, but I'll say this. I was in a very similar situation with a few elements, and I had to take a break from training because of a job I had. I spent the few months reading all the posts in the "how to know when to stop a set" thread and redefining my understanding of how hard I should work in a workout, so now that I have a new job, I retested for element placements and demonstrated mastery of the two stubborn elements that had given me the most trouble. The only difference between me now and then is that now I refused to stop even though I felt like I was dying... there was much yelling of guttural curses and bear-like growling. 
just my 0.02 USD
Same thing here! This and the tempo correction!
Only thing that I do super slow now is sPL/PE1. And it´s cause of the iM I do 5 x 15 and the tempo is 2s down and 2s up.
I have been sticking strictly to the program for 4 months and at times I feel like I've hit road blocks and have gotten weaker in some areas, but to be honest that is because I used to go hard before and now with a program I started to think all that I had to do was the minimum.
If you can do more, do more, don't hold yourself back. I'll be honest some of the advice from this forum is not solid, some people are saying don't do cardio this many days a week, don't workout more than the program etc, I am not naming anyone but those people hold themselves back. As the coach has said many times, you can play with stuff after your workout, this is where you get new perspective, fresh stuff, and feel less stuck, it might also help you overcome plateaus. Anytime I ever get stuck on anything I know that I am being lazy, as someone who has spent their life working hard physically I know that I have learned to slack where I can to make up for where I can't, this does not work in this program or any program where you expect results. I agree we are all different, but through hard work and determination the differences are subtle.
red1392 said:Did you end up managing to overcome the plateau? Were the modifications you made to your training effective?
I haven't quite finished up my own little program yet. I have another week to go, and then a week of testing. Then, hopefully, I'll be back on Foundation.
I'll say this though, I've definitely built up some strength/size that was lacking before. I actually have lats now! For the first time ever!
I haven't totally stuck to the program I wrote for myself. Some exercises I realised clearly weren't working out for me the way I expected them too, so I've had fun playing around with various things. I also haven't managed to hit every workout on the exact right days.
Which is interesting (at least to me) because on my scheduled workout day I might feel like crap and half ass it, but then I'll come back the day after and smash a new PR. So it's definitely been a learning experience.
Bipocni said:I haven't quite finished up my own little program yet. I have another week to go, and then a week of testing. Then, hopefully, I'll be back on Foundation.
I'll say this though, I've definitely built up some strength/size that was lacking before. I actually have lats now! For the first time ever!
I haven't totally stuck to the program I wrote for myself. Some exercises I realised clearly weren't working out for me the way I expected them too, so I've had fun playing around with various things. I also haven't managed to hit every workout on the exact right days.
Which is interesting (at least to me) because on my scheduled workout day I might feel like crap and half ass it, but then I'll come back the day after and smash a new PR. So it's definitely been a learning experience.
Good to hear you've built some strength. I know exactly what you mean about scheduled workout days too. I don't know if it's recovery related or a mental thing, but days making up for missed workouts are some of my best.
Update the thread when you're done testing, if you don't mind! Always interested in what's working for people. Hopefully you'll blast through the mastery.
Patrick, Riku, Matt - thanks for the insights. I definitely agree to an extent with all of you. I've found the long holds require getting into a 'zone' of complete focus of sorts. I actually sometimes experience somewhat of a 'second wind' halfway through hollow body holds, and I find I can hold for surprisingly long periods of time then. It helps to remember to breathe.
I also agree with Matt in that I feel like I'm capable of more than just Foundation. Although I'm always very tired immediately after the work sets (low rest and what not), 15 mins or so after the workout has ended I feel like I haven't done much altogether.
red1392 said:I also agree with Matt in that I feel like I'm capable of more than just Foundation.
This is a tricky area. It's no good going for broke this workout, if you aren't recovered in time for next workout. But if you're stuck, extra volume usually helps.
If you're doing Foundation with an appropriate amount of volume, you *should* feel like you're capable of more. Operating at maximum capacity doesn't leave you with time for recovery.
