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Jeff Walker

Backwards Roll Help

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Jeff Walker

I've been practicing the back roll now and I just cant seem to get past a sticking point.  Attached are 2 videos.  The first video (video 7)  is a pullover with bands to assist starting from the ground.  The second video (Video 9)  is also a pullover but I Start from support.

 

The issue i am having is that I am falling out of the roll you can see at the 8-9 second mark in video 9, I fall out of the tuck, t his is the point where I should be pushing down on the rings to complete the roll but I just fall out of it.  I don't feel like its a strength issue because I can do a bent arm straddle planche, not the best form but I don't feel like that's the issue, I feel like its maintaining the false grip in that position.   

 

Any advice or drills to work?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMr89PiD8Gs&list=PLr0qeoFwx8H-p2ow9jplOOMoSY4TXSS1_

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Alessandro Mainente

The point where you refer to be less strong is the transition of the roll, as the transition from pull to dip is the difficult part of muscle up.

i think that you can't complete the motion simply cause you have some lack of strength. no matter how much can you hold a BA planche. you are not doing a bent arm planche. since the previously cited skill is done usually on floor on a surface/equipment that lets to the shoulders to stay over hands level, you are not doing any type of dipping + curling movement.

the motion of broll is more similar to korean dips for a certain reason. can you do korean dips with palms facing down?

have you previously mastered all the forward roll movement of muscle up?

the only way you have to do the skill controlled is build up the strength to perform the inverted hand to support movement (with backward roll) without kipping or swinging.

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Jeff Walker

Thanks for the info.  I havn;t tried them and I just watched the gymnastic bodies video on Korean Dips and they look pretty tough.  How do I work specifically on the transition?  Should I keep doing the assisted with bands or focus on Korean dips, etc?  Thanks. This is a pretty cool move that I want to work on. 

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Cody Ward

I've seen a few people on this forum say that cross trainers are good for the backwards roll.


 

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Jeff Walker

Really cross trainers?  I have those and not sure how they would help.  Can someone explain?  Even on the highest level of difficulty with hem, I would think that the forearm support of the trainers themselves would not help develop strength through the transition. 

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Joshua Slocum

As you already know, following Foundation would be your best bet. 

 

Failing that, it looks to me like you're lacking in bicep strength, so work on that. 

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Jeff Walker
I think its like forearm tendinitis or something.   Lately I have been experiencing some forearm pain and weakness when my wrist is palm down pushing  my weight up.   Yesterday I was carrying a grocery basket filled with milk and oj , etc and I felt the same weakness in my wrist and pain in the forearm.  My grip feels weak and I get a like a tingly pain.  Ive had this before or something similiar when doing heavy BB curls.  So its only felt when in a curling motion whether vertical or inverted. I also feel it when I am in a BAS or Shoulder stand and I lower myself to inverted - Kind of like a negative curl.    I dont have this sensation with any other movement.  Otherwise my grip feels fine. I  can do the fwd roll with no issues.  I think the difference is that in the fwd roll my wrist are not palm down pushing my body up.  Once I roll fwd and find the false grip as long as I keep my body tight, i wnd up in the Muscle up transition, no issues. 

 

Any ideas?  

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Guest

foundation one

 

haha just kidding, I get this from time to time when I do too much of something. Slow down, get some rest and massage your forearms alot.

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Jeff Walker

Cody, great advice with the cross trainers.  I tried it today and it felt really good.  You can also practice a maltese - both are lots of fun and seems pretty safe practice with the trainers.  They are plenty difficult depending on the setting and feel really good.  I will work with these for a while.  thx

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Ryan Hutchins

       If you can do a muscle up then you have the necessary strength to do a backwards roll on rings. Maintain your false grip as you start getting inverted. Keep the rings close together(touching your sides at first) Its going to feel weird because you are not in normal muscle up position but you should have the same strain that you normally would during the muscle up. Go with that feeling and pull it all the way up to front support. Just like with first learning a MU you need to have the rings really close together. Then as you get stronger you can have them wider.

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Guest

Muscle up does not equal backwards roll on rings, much less so, in fact.

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Cody Ward

Muscle up does not equal backwards roll on rings, much less so, in fact.

This. Backwards roll is way harder.

Some things that come to mind to help train for it would be, cross trainers, bands, foot supported bent arm pelicans, and korean ring dips.

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Ryan Hutchins

I'm not saying I'm super human. I am saying that I'm a good judge of the amount of strength that I'm using. A backward roll is slightly harder than a muscle up due to the body awareness that you must have. Do both of you(Cody and Awareness) have a backwards roll/pull over on rings? I can do both and i have taught both skills to people. I don't consider a pullover "way harder" but maybe it is "way harder" for you.

 

This is only my opinion as "harder" is subjective when comparing these relatively easy skills. I only was saying that if he was strong enough to do a muscle up then he would be strong enough to do the backward roll.

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Alessandro Mainente

instead of talk about the strength is needed is better talk about your actual joint preparation. backward roll is far more stressing on both shoulders and elbows, if you do not have a good preparation you risk to torn your elbow tendons, since the backward roll is a controlled motion you need to develop both strength support and joints support. only the muscle up is not sufficient , in my opinion, to prepare the b roll.

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Blairbob

 The cross trainers just allow you to learn the technique of the backward roll/pullover on rings without the aid of a spotter.
 

 Gregor once said backward roll on rings needs a sick amount of tricep/dipping strength. Something to that effect.

 Korean dips and doing dips on rings to bent arm planche.

 You are also going slower than need be on the backward roll. Move a bit faster so that it can lever you up as your feet go down (during the last part of the roll ).

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Jurre

instead of talk about the strength is needed is better talk about your actual joint preparation. backward roll is far more stressing on both shoulders and elbows, if you do not have a good preparation you risk to torn your elbow tendons, since the backward roll is a controlled motion you need to develop both strength support and joints support. only the muscle up is not sufficient , in my opinion, to prepare the b roll.

So what is sufficient?

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Alessandro Mainente

i could say probably the muscle ups and all it's version, plus adv combined pull press movements..but before all the mastery of Foundation 2.

i suppose that simply because i find this a logic progression with progressive joints stress, by the way my opinion cannot be a substitute of a seminar wher you will have exactly the correct journey.

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Jorge Juan García

As way i see it, the strength used in a MU is much like the strength used in a Forward roll, but not in Backward roll. It´s a little more harder a  little more technical. Furthermore there are several variants to do it. From Dead hang, from bottom of dip, from support leaning backward, back kip, with straight body without pike....

 

I got it once I had a good strict MU and a good Forward roll. I did it training Pelicans and practicing with a band on rings. Not saying it's the best way, but I got it so.

 

Probably R1 will cover this movement and left us all speechless... :o  :o  :o  :o

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Ryan Hutchins

I forget that the main problem with the WOD's and users inability to properly apply BTGB to a strength routine was the lack of preparation of the body to even be in gymnastic training in the first place. Jwalker497... it would be good to do a check to make sure you have any mobility and joint prep issues shored up before attempting this move. Even when i learned it i was in a phase where i was just trying things i saw like crosses and just happened to escape serious elbow injury after Coach, a moderator or two, and several users convinced me to prepare my body first before promoting myself to advanced ring training.

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Jeff Walker

Tricep Strength?  I can see that once the roll is complete and you are pressing into support - like an advanced korean dip but thats not the part I struggle with, its the pressing down and bicep that seem to be lacking.  I really like using the cross trainers, they feel like they hit the bicep part harder as you really have to push down hard to avoid falling out of the roll into a gerham hang or tuck back lever,

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Jeff Walker

So If I start this movement from a dead hang and do a pullover, should I be grasping the rings with a false grip or not?  It seems as my body rolls over and is under the rings, I cant hold a false grip upside down, it seems impossible.  Its not even similiar to a fwd roll where you catch the fasle grip before you roll over.  This is really confusing me.  I feel like I have the strength to do it but Im missing something. I can hold a bent arm half lay planche but the wrist position is different

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Brenda Weiss

Try looking at these eight progressions (#6  url  posted here):   http://www.powermonkeyfitness.com/blog/back-roll-on-rings-progressions-part-6-low-rings. The progressions I am familiar with  utilize the false grip , so you have to practice hanging and inverting, piking in that false grip. The grip seems to become exponentially harder to maintain while inverted. Chalk is essential, and wrapping the rings really helps.This is  where  I am at with this right now. Others far stronger and more experienced than I  may have alternate or better advice.   If you want to see how not to do it, with all sorts of different mistakes look at this :  http://media.crossfit.com/awset/CrossFit_BackwardRollToSupport140101_Final_52c350af4c4d6_SD.mp4

 

As knowledgeable as Glassman is, he obviously is no gymnast. But you can see that only the fellow in the green shirt does this correctly.All the rest are pretty sloppy. However, useful to see what not to do.

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Ryan Trainor

I'm working through this as well right now and I've been seeing results by using my trusty bike tube stretched across the rings to support my waist as i roll through. I continue to slacken it each time to progress. Also I want to try a tucked roll rather than legs out to see if it's more manageable..

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Ryan Trainor

Just saw the last 2 posts - i've been working on my false grip strength as well and it definitely is possible to maintain a false grip through rolling, skin the cat, levers, kips etc. But as mentioned above it requires chalk and time spent in false grip doing weird things!

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vážnost

hi, I wanted to start a similar topic, but am not sure what the etiquette here is.

 

I've just (in last 2 weeks) got my first back kip to support, which I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) is easier than back roll to support (just as cheating a muscle-up is easier than strict--using momentum to get through a weak transition point), and I can forward roll to support, but I'm curious if there are any exercises I should be focusing on on rings if I want to progress from only being able to kip to having the back roll, or if it's just a matter of waiting until I'm stronger in general.

Right now I'm just considering the back kip a kind of progression step to the back roll, but maybe I should be focusing on the forward roll more instead? I don't know which is more analogous.

support.mp4

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