elbows hurt after working on mushroom circles

[Fred Mak]

I have been feeling pain/discomfort in my elbows after doing mushroom circles.  Has anyone had any experience with this?  is this normal when starting circle work?

 

background info:

i started doing mushroom circles in august.

 

weekly workout routine:

2 sessions H1 PE1

1 session H1 wrist and mobility exercises only (no PE work)

2 gymnastics classes (i spend the vast majority of my time working on circles and tumbling, but I do spend a few minutes working on muscle ups and chin ups on the rings each class in order to work the pulling muscles.  I often spend 30 to 60 minutes just working on circles.)

3 yoga sessions

1 leg calisthenic workout

1 or 2 sessions a week working on muscle ups on the straight bar (10 minutes work per session)

lots of walking

 

 

i think it might have something to do with the elbow being straight, and perhaps it is too much stress on the straightened elbow joint.  i just fooled around with some handstands (therefore, my elbows were straight) and i felt pressure on the elbow joint again.

 

my hypothesis is that i should do a pushing workout in which i bend the elbow joint in order to strengthen the elbow joint.  i think this is called bent arm strength?

 

tools: I have clubbells, paralletes, GMB's Parallettes 1 program, dip station at condo gym.  

 

i'm considering doing GMB's "Parallettes 1 program" 1x per week to treat the problem.  although it's going to be a real bitch finding time to do another workout every week.  I already finished the first half of the program, so I have approximately 36 programmed workouts left in the program.  the paralletes 1 program has a lot of different pushing exercises and you do bend the elbows a lot when doing this program.

 

or maybe i'll just do something less structured, like do a bunch of pushups and dips.  that way, i don't have to set aside an hour to do the paralletes 1 program.

 

any thoughts?  is this elbow pain normal when working circles?

[Daniel Burnham]

The issue is easy. You are doing too much work. 30 min of circles work is a lot let alone 60 for a beginner. You not prepared for that kind of thing. The foundation series planche progressions would help a lot.

You need to back off immediately and let things heal. You should also be doing planks and leans in each direction with straight arms.

[Cody Ward]

No, it's not normal to feel elbow stress working circles, or handstands for that matter. You haven't properly prepared yourself for that work yet.

You're hypothesis is also incorrect. Focusing solely on bent arm strength to strengthen your elbow joints is not going to work.

For you, my recommendation would be to drop the GMB program and follow F1. It seems like you're trying to do too much too soon.

[Fred Mak]

ok, i went to gymnastics class and didn't do any circles today.  next time i go back to class, i'll limit myself to 15 minutes of circles per class until my elbows feel better.

 

thanks for the suggestion.

i have a lot of questions.

 

1. daniel, i'm curious about your suggestion to work on the F1 planche progressions.  what is your reasoning for me to work on the planche?  if i feel stress on my elbows when the arms are straight, wouldn't planche work put even more stress on the elbows?

2. my condo has an uneven, slanted floor (it slants maybe 6 or 7 inches over 25 ft.).  would it be bad to work on the planche with such an uneven floor?

3. if i work on the planche, should i just face downhill to minimize wrist strain?

4. can you just work on a few elements in F1, like just manna and planche, or is F1 comprised of a program where you can not separate out only the aspects that you want to work on?

5. does F1 use paralletes or just the floor for the planche?

6. when you do circles, handstands, tumbling, and the planche your arms should be a little bit bent, right?  because if they were completely locked out, they would hyperextend, right? 

7. what is so different about F1 planche progressions versus coach's dragondoor planche progressions article (http://www.dragondoor.com/articles/building-an-olympic-body-through-bodyweight-conditioning/)?  is the F1 planche progression different just because it has extra mobility exercises?

8. is F1 like H1 in the sense that each move that you do has a PE or SE and a related mobility exercise?

 

thanks

[Jason Dupree]

1. The F1 planche progressions are meant to strengthen your elbows (along with many benefits). Your elbows will not get stronger if you do not work them. The progressions are gradual, meaning the first progression is several times easier on your elbows than an advanced frog stand.

2. As long as you position yourself so your hands are at the same height you should be fine. Try for level ground when you can though.

3. That, or turn your fingers out a bit. The further to fingers back you get, the less wrist strain and most elbow strain.

4. Yes. But ... why would you not do them all?

5. Floor

6. Your arm should be "straight". It may feel like you are bending slightly if you naturally hyper extend, but your arm will be straight regardless of the bent feeling. Dont hyper extend.

7. F1 progressions are what come before those seen in his article, and easier too.

8. Yes

[Brian Li]

6. Your arm should be "straight". It may feel like you are bending slightly if you naturally hyper extend, but your arm will be straight regardless of the bent feeling. Dont hyper extend.

 

This is incorrect. If your arms naturally hyper extend then you should hyper extend otherwise it is not locked.

[Daniel Burnham]

1.You need to prepare the elbows for the straight arm tension.  This is what the planche progression are good for.

2/3Dont worry about this  just orient yourself so that you arms are on the same level. Don't worry about legs being a little higher or lower.

4.The Foundation elements balance each other out.  Not doing one can lead to imbalances especially in mobility.

5. Floor mostly.  Parallettes aren't really needed until later and they make most exercises easier anyway.

6.Arms need to be completely straight.  Bending will slow down momentum in the swings.  Trust me you don't want the chance of your arm buckling while doing a travel down the pommel horse.  In fact you should feel tension in your tricep pulling it as straight as possible.

7.Foundation is a more in-depth program covering mobility and is reorganized for adult trainees who need a lot of prep that coach assumed most would have.  It is leaps and bounds better than anything written before.  

8.The foundation series is structured much like the handstand series.

[Jason Dupree]

My mistake, I thought I remembered a discussion about this where coach chimed in but I can't find it. Is it wrong for someone who hyper extends to strive for a straight arm for aesthetic purposes, as well as to make sure that the whole musculature is supporting, and not just "resting" on the locked bones?

[Fred Mak]

JasonDupree asked

"4. Yes. But ... why would you not do them all?"

 

 

jason, the reason i was asking about just doing planche and manna is because, in my opinion, F1 is very inconvenient.  you need a lot of different equipment that i don't have lying around at home.  i already find h1 to be a huge pain in the ass, because i go do that at the park where the ground is level (as i mentioned earlier, the floor in my condo is uneven).  additionally, i already am pretty busy with my current routine. 

 

thank you guys for all the input.  i will start planche training this week.  i am going to hold off on buying F1 (maybe in the future i'll look into it), but for now i'll try to get the planche without F1.  

[Daniel Burnham]

JasonDupree asked

"4. Yes. But ... why would you not do them all?"

jason, the reason i was asking about just doing planche and manna is because, in my opinion, F1 is very inconvenient. you need a lot of different equipment that i don't have lying around at home. i already find h1 to be a huge pain in the ass, because i go do that at the park where the ground is level (as i mentioned earlier, the floor in my condo is uneven). additionally, i already am pretty busy with my current routine.

thank you guys for all the input. i will start planche training this week. i am going to hold off on buying F1 (maybe in the future i'll look into it), but for now i'll try to get the planche without F1.

In this case you will most likely be adding some intensity rather than prehab. It will likely contribute to your pain. I will give you some free advice. Work lots of planks and even try to get a good lsit first.

I recommended f1 because I knew it would go slow and steady enough for you to build slowly.

[Fred Mak]

daniel wrote,

 

"4.The Foundation elements balance each other out.  Not doing one can lead to imbalances especially in mobility."

 

i'll probably have to consider front lever training too, even though i'm not really interested in the skill.  coach seems to indicate in the dragondoor article that it's a good move to learn to balance planche training.

 

ok, this is going to sound like a really repetitive question, but since you guys mentioned that planche training on uneven ground is ok as long as the hands are at the same level, do you think training handstands and h1 on uneven flooring is ok?

[Fred Mak]

daniel, if some time passes and the pain gets worse, i will reconsider buying F1.  health is always a number 1 priority for me, which is why i was considering doing the front lever work also.

 

thanks for the tips about the plank and l-sit.

[Connor Davies]

In this case you will most likely be adding some intensity rather than prehab. It will likely contribute to your pain. I will give you some free advice. Work lots of planks and even try to get a good lsit first.

I recommended f1 because I knew it would go slow and steady enough for you to build slowly.

Daniel how do you feel about support hold progressions vs planche progressions for elbow conditioning?  I know that both can be pretty rough on the elbows, but do you feel the extra stress on the shoulders from planche progressions creates a natural stopping point that allows people to work hard without overworking themselves?  As in, the shoulder strength will fail before the elbows with planche progressions, but the joint integrity might give way first with support holds because there's less muscular exertion?

[Daniel Burnham]

Daniel how do you feel about support hold progressions vs planche progressions for elbow conditioning?  I know that both can be pretty rough on the elbows, but do you feel the extra stress on the shoulders from planche progressions creates a natural stopping point that allows people to work hard without overworking themselves?  As in, the shoulder strength will fail before the elbows with planche progressions, but the joint integrity might give way first with support holds because there's less muscular exertion?

Well the support hold would kinda be covered by the l-sit in this case.  But speaking generally the support actually isn't as easy as people think.  You aren't just hanging out on the top of the bars.  You need to be pushing down with scapula depressed.  I rarely see people able to do the support correctly especially on rings.  Probably the biggest reason people don't move on to things like press handstand and planche on rings.  Anyway I think learning support is a good thing in addition to planche.  At first learning it on the horizontal plane is probably a good idea because you can better feel the scapula as body sag is more apparent.  I don't know remember where just support is covered in the foundation series but its a fundamental thing to learn so its definitely covered.

 

Personally I don't think that support is all that hard on the elbows which is why i recommend planche progressions.  I find the most of those to be much harder on the elbows.  Of course support on rings is harder on the elbows than planche progression on floor but we are focusing in the floor/bar progressions here.

[Blairbob]

Besides too much too soon, try not "slapping" the mushroom when doing circles. Reach behind yourself, place the hand down and shift weight on to it.

 

Slow this down a bit in a bucket circle rig.