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Started by Destiny, November 14, 2013 · 59 Replies · 3,375 Views
Are your shoulders supposed to dislocate or "pop" back? Is that the goal of the exercise? To achieve that popped position but as narrow as possible?
Kind of confused as to how it should feel.
edit: also another question, should you feel the traps tense up immensely? I can do it with or without immense trap contraction/burn
PIggybacking on Destiny's question, should the scapulas feel like they are pinching together while the shoulder externally rotates as much as possible?
Also, should the wrist be bent 90deg with respect to the arm or rotated in line with the arm?
CrazyMomJ said:Also, should the wrist be bent 90deg with respect to the arm or rotated in line with the arm?
I can't picture this..
I think the shoulders should "pop" back. If you've ever done a dislocate in front of a mirror, you should know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure it should be the same as a dislocate, but with the arms too narrow to actually dislocate.
Remember, this is a progression that works up to dislocates eventually, so it makes sense to me.
This is what meant (demo'd by my kiddo).
CrazyMomJ said:This is what meant (demo'd by my kiddo).
Oh. Umm. I go with the second one. I don't think it matters much, it's a shoulder exercise..
I read in another thread and if memory serves me the general consensus was to do it without the "pop" and just flex them backwards but as the athlete it he video clearly does dislocate somewhat nd it makes sense to me now thanks to bipod mentioning that this leads to dislocates later on....
Straight flexion backwards. Not rotation, not an abbreviated dislocate. Distinct exercise. Shoulder width.
I got explicitly corrected on this at seminar; I can easily dislocate unweighted at this distance. Think opening shoulders as in a bridge.
Or... a handstand 
I just want to throw in here, that once I started doing this right, the way Jon describes, this has done wonders for my handstand and bridge. My favourite combo for warming up /loosening up before HS training is 2 sets each of PE3 and PE4 (i like the rep version best) done back to back.
Im up to 10 kg on the PE3, but only 2,5 kg for PE4 full ROM.
These are going to be in my program a looooooong time.
EDIT: And yes, this is nothing like a dislocate.
Jon Douglas said:Straight flexion backwards.
So should the shoulders be in the same position as a chinup?
Jon Douglas said:Straight flexion backwards. Not rotation, not an abbreviated dislocate. Distinct exercise. Shoulder width.
I got explicitly corrected on this at seminar; I can easily dislocate unweighted at this distance. Think opening shoulders as in a bridge.
Or... a handstand
I just figured this part out myself. I've been lifting into these holds thinking about rotation, and recently started to feel some minor discomfort on the back of my shoulder.
What I started doing is shrugging as high as I can while sitting straight up with the bar overhead. I pause there for a moment and really push up before leaning in and pulling back for the hold. This cued me in to straight flexion without my even intending it too, and I felt much better afterwards. Only then did I realize I had been doing it wrong. Also created incredible tensing in my traps. Without the pause at the top I tend to fall into dislocate mode.
Ok thanks for the help guys but I'm still pretty confused on how to execute the exercise.
In my OP I wrote the 2nd way I could do it I could feel a strong trap contraction. After reading replies, I'm sure that's the correct way. But trying it now I can't seem to get the same feeling. Maybe I'm still doing it the same but the feeling is different.
Any tips on how to execute it? So pause, shrug up hard, and then pull back how? Depressing the scapula/pulling the traps down? If I just try to pull back without moving anything sort of like a cat stretch on a box I hardly get any rom no matter what width.
Still not sure how to replicate it in real life and I'm getting really tired trying so many times ha
DESTINY said:Ok thanks for the help guys but I'm still pretty confused on how to execute the exercise.
In my OP I wrote the 2nd way I could do it I could feel a strong trap contraction. After reading replies, I'm sure that's the correct way. But trying it now I can't seem to get the same feeling. Maybe I'm still doing it the same but the feeling is different.
Any tips on how to execute it? So pause, shrug up hard, and then pull back how? Depressing the scapula/pulling the traps down? If I just try to pull back without moving anything sort of like a cat stretch on a box I hardly get any rom no matter what width.
Still not sure how to replicate it in real life and I'm getting really tired trying so many times ha
Make sure that when you are sitting, you get your back straight (not necessarily vertical) before you lift it over your head. Do it in an arc, and stop/readjust if you discover your back arching at any point.
Spend some time in that final position and work on how to open your shoulders even further. Think of how you can lower the weight further, but only from your shoulders (this includes leaning forwards against it, but seriously, no arching).
Do you have a picture of your current ROM?
CrazyMomJ said:This is what meant (demo'd by my kiddo).
The first photo is correct.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Like you would do if you were in a handstand and maintaining your hollow position, then flexing only at the shoulders - i.e. opening the shoulders past 180 degrees, no? Therefore the wrist bent backwards and the hands slightly in excess of shoulder-width and not dislocating anything?
Kage said:Like you would do if you were in a handstand and maintaining your hollow position, then flexing only at the shoulders - i.e. opening the shoulders past 180 degrees, no? Therefore the wrist bent backwards and the hands slightly in excess of shoulder-width and not dislocating anything?
Yes, that's it
Jon Douglas said:Yes, that's it
What about internal rotation? There are 3 basic shoulder rotations (which I'm going to label horribly here) the dislocate, neutral or the chinup position. Neutral is correct, right?
Bipocni said:What about internal rotation? There are 3 basic shoulder rotations (which I'm going to label horribly here) the dislocate, neutral or the chinup position. Neutral is correct, right?
If you internally rotate you would position yourself to start a dislocate. No bueno for PE1im. Just keep a straight shot back, feeling the hands pull behind you.
Chinup position is external rotation
Biren P. said:If you internally rotate you would position yourself to start a dislocate. No bueno for PE1im. Just keep a straight shot back, feeling the hands pull behind you.
Chinup position is external rotation
Wait what? lemme google check this...
Edit: Nope, I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.... When you use the underhand grip you're definitely rolling your shoulder into the joint, pretty much the opposite of a dislocate. This is why dorsal dislocates are so much harder.
Supinated grip (palms toward face)
Neutral grip (thumbs toward face)
Pronated grip (back of hands toward face)
No matter the position, when the left hand is rotating counterclockwise = externally rotating, clockwise = internally rotating
Pronated should be right for this movement and I think you are dislocating easier when externally rotating.
Bipocni said:Wait what? lemme google check this...
Edit: Nope, I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.... When you use the underhand grip you're definitely rolling your shoulder into the joint, pretty much the opposite of a dislocate. This is why dorsal dislocates are so much harder.
You did not specifiy underhand dislocate. Since we were talking in the context of PE1-im, I assumed you meant overhand dislocate, which is in fact internal rotation as the arms move from front to behind you.
Just work it out like Kage said. lift your left arm to parallel to ground and turn the humerus clockwise to internally rotate. Now keep turning it as you lift overhead slowly and you will find that this internal rotation facilitates a dislocate.
I think you may be confusing anatomy terms like external rotation, internal rotation, supination with colloquial terms like dislocate, neutral grip, and chinup grip.
are the elbows supposed to be locked?
Ronin168 said:are the elbows supposed to be locked?
Yes.
trw said:I just figured this part out myself. I've been lifting into these holds thinking about rotation, and recently started to feel some minor discomfort on the back of my shoulder.
What I started doing is shrugging as high as I can while sitting straight up with the bar overhead. I pause there for a moment and really push up before leaning in and pulling back for the hold. This cued me in to straight flexion without my even intending it too, and I felt much better afterwards. Only then did I realize I had been doing it wrong. Also created incredible tensing in my traps. Without the pause at the top I tend to fall into dislocate mode.
I just wanted to mention this is the cue that really made me get this exercise. I've been thinking of it as a shoulder exercise, when really it's an amazing thoracic spine extender. I like it much more now, it doesn't just feel like I'm hanging out between sets.