Particular Training method

[Anathema]

I'm not a gymnast nor training to be one, I just happen to like how they work out and train rather than lift weights, with their bodyweight alone that is, so I wanted to ask something here.

How good is this type of workout:

Say you can do a max of, for example, 14 chinups, 13 dips, 12 pullups, and 25-30 pushups, in any one try of each exercise, and let's say that's one "routine" of yours, and you do that once with a 30 second rest between each exercise, for example: you do 14 chinups, then rest 30 seconds, then you do 13 dips, then rest 30 seconds, etc. etc.

Now with this kind of workout, going very close to failure or your max # of reps, you'll probably only be able to do that routine maybe 4 times a day (with the same number of reps for each exercise that is), maybe more if you have more time and are really dedicated, but chances are you'll be very tired and exhausted, depending on who you are and the numbers of course, the numbers won't always be the same.

So probably, since with this kind of workout you'll always be going to the max, you probably won't have a very high total number of reps for each exercise at the end of the day, that is, you'll end up only with like 56 chinups, 52 dips, etc.

So let's say that, instead of doing your max number of reps on each exercise, in each routine, like with the above mentioned routine, and always going to the limit, you do, instead, for example: 6 chinups, then immediately 6 dips, rest 30 seconds, then 6 pullups followed immediately by 6 dips, rest 30 seconds, then finally 6 neutral-grip chinups followed immediately by 6 dips.

That would be one "set", that is, 6 chinups and 6 dips, then 6 pullups and 6 dips, and then 6 neutral-grip chins and 6 dips.

So let's say that, instead of doing the other high-rep routine, you focus on this lower-rep but more frequent routine, since you could do 2 "sets" of those, or 3 if you are capable: how good would this kind of training be?

This is only one example; a more accurate or similar example in comparison with the high-rep routine would be just to do 6 reps of each but do more sets throughout the whole day.

So basically the idea would be to go lighter but more frequent, and thus at the end of the day, end up with a very much higher total # of reps than the high-rep routine.

So, how good is this "method" of training?

[Anathema]

Also, I thought I'd make it clear that my ends are just exercising and building muscle/size, with bodyweight alone and no additional weight like dipbelts and stuff.

Would this training method be effective, then, for building muscle and size?

[Anathema]

One last note: I think this would be "volume" training compared to "intensity"(?) training.

[Blairbob]

Doing more sets of 50% capacity is called Grease the Groove and was made popular by Pavel. Yes, it's a very good method for increasing max number of reps. Some of this is simply becoming efficient at the movement patterns.

[Coach Sommer]

One last note: I think this would be "volume" training compared to "intensity"(?) training.

Actually this is incorrect. There are quite a variety of exercises that are far too "intense" or difficult for many people to perform initially. The key to gymnastics strength development is progressing through the variations correctly, much like increasing weight gradually as when weightlifting.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Anathema]

One last note: I think this would be "volume" training compared to "intensity"(?) training.

Actually this is incorrect. There are quite a variety of exercises that are far too "intense" or difficult for many people to perform initially. The key to gymnastics strength development is progressing through the variations correctly, much like increasing weight gradually as when weightlifting.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for the correction.

So, is this method better at muscle/size gains that going always close to the limit on every rep?

[Coach Sommer]

Why would you want to go to the limit on every rep, every day, of every workout?

There is a strict biological limitation on how quickly the body can physiologically adapt to a new training load being placed upon it; the body must be given time to consolidate the strength gains. Constantly striving to improve from workout to workout (e.g. adding weight, increasing reps etc) is only possible for beginners. Anyone past a beginner level who attempts to carry on their training in this manner is eventually going to exceed their body's capacity for recovery and get injured. If after being injured, they haven't learned their lesson and continue to insist on training in this fashion - perpetually repeating this cycle of training until injured, the injur(ies) will eventually become chronic. This is of course ultimately detrimental to their realizing their athletic potential, but quite beneficial to their orthopedic surgeon's bank account.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Anathema]

Why would you want to go to the limit on every rep, every day, of every workout?

There is a strict biological limitation on how quickly the body can physiologically adapt to a new training load being placed upon it; the body must be given time to consolidate the strength gains. Constantly striving to improve from workout to workout (e.g. adding weight, increasing reps etc) is only possible for beginners. Anyone past a beginner level who attempts to carry on their training in this manner is eventually going to exceed their body's capacity for recovery and get injured. If after being injured, they haven't learned their lesson and continue to insist on training in this fashion - perpetually repeating this cycle of training until injured, the injur(ies) will eventually become chronic. This is of course ultimately detrimental to their realizing their athletic potential, but quite beneficial to their orthopedic surgeon's bank account.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I said I didn't want to, that's why I was asking about this other type of training.

But I do know some people who train always going to the limit though, always "maxing out", and they haven't gotten any injuries and stuff, and their strength and rep levels are very high.

[Coach Sommer]

and their strength and rep levels are very high.

This may be, but I have personally never seen this to be the case. In this instance, my opinion would be that their strength levels are not as high as you think that they are.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Richard Duelley]

This is a story about a friend I workout with sometimes. Every time we are in the gym (weight room or gymnastics) he always goes full speed ahead and maxes everything and goes as fast as possible (ie VERY limited rest between movements). I say I "sometimes" workout with him because most of the time he is nursing (or complaining) about some ailment (aka injury) he acquired in our last training session. So, he only ends up training about once a week, if that and he is insistent that he is getting stronger. :roll: I really think he tries to keep up with me and just doesnt understand that I have built up my work capacity over time and I follow a strict diet (my recovery ability has improved immensely), which is annoying when he sits next to me and snacks on a piece of pizza and I am gnawing on some broccoli.

All I know is I am in the best shape of my life and the people around me are noticing the changes

I personally, rarely if ever max out (I think I will max out once a year just because I am curious). I train primarily using Coach's steady state cycle and I use the weight room for joint pre-habilitation and to dead lift every so often.

If you are consistent with your workouts and have a great diet you will see results. I routinely see people move massive weights at the gym but I'm the one getting the ooo's and ahh's when I just stand there and rep out single leg squats. . .I have even had these heavy lifters approach me and want me to teach them how to do it, I cant wait until I get one arm chins! (still a few years out I think :wink: )

Short note about perceived strength levels that I have noticed.

Usually the guys moving tons of weight (at least in the gyms I have been to) will also have horrendous form/technique. The form break down can make the movement easier but it also greatly enhances the chance for injury.

There are, however, 2 guys I routinely see at the gym that have immaculate form in everything they do and they move an unbelievable amount of weight. They also are the guys that carry around ratty old notebooks and take meticulous notes throughout their workout and they just have that "look". People who have seen guys in the gym like this know what I am talking about. 8)

[JL]

I think that in the end, training is still specific. I was reading about a guy who holds the world record for pullups in some x number of hours (like 8 hrs or so). His training consists of doing pullups throughout the day to maximize the total pullups. The thing is, he can only complete like 24 pullups in a row. That's it, for a world record holder. So, I think this might be evidence that grease the groove (with the goal of maximum volume) has it's limits.

Coach, didn't you say something about workload being easier to achieve in the short term than maximum strength? Hence, why GTG seems to work wonders for people just getting into fitness.

[Anathema]

and their strength and rep levels are very high.

This may be, but I have personally never seen this to be the case. In this instance, my opinion would be that their strength levels are not as high as you think that they are.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Then what do you say about all those that are in youtube then?

There's one called the "Hitman", that guy is ripped and is very strong, doing all those handstand things he does.

Another one called "Zef", or "Zakaveli"; that guy can do 20 straight muscle-ups and other incredible feats wich require strength.

Another one called "Beast", or "Beastmode"; that guy has tremendous strength and does incredible feats as well, which of course require a lot of strength and is considered to be the best.

There are many others, but the point is that all these guys spend all day on the bars, and working close to the limit.

Not the case then?

[JL]

^^^Well, if you can serious push yourself that hard and recover, then it is probably the right thing to do. Only you know what you can recover from, we are all different. However,it reminds me of a post I read on T-nation. This was in a Grease the groove topic. He said that he did pull ups, not once every hour, but once every TEN MINUTES. As set of pullups every ten minutes for a week, and he claims he went from 4 reps to 7 reps in that time. Problem is, his elbows or shoulder started hurting and he had to quit.

[Chris Hobbs]

There are many others, but the point is that all these guys spend all day on the bars, and working close to the limit.

Not the case then?

Not to be too argumentative, but have you trained with these people? Do you have any clue how close to their limit they are working and for how long each day at that level? Anybody can post a video of a singlular attempt and claim they do that all day long everyday. For the guys that truly do, my opinion is that it has been built with years of preparation either in the given sport or in other endeavors with decent carryover and that they are nowhere near their limit in most cases.

- Chris

[Anathema]

There are many others, but the point is that all these guys spend all day on the bars, and working close to the limit.

Not the case then?

Not to be too argumentative, but have you trained with these people? Do you have any clue how close to their limit they are working and for how long each day at that level? Anybody can post a video of a singlular attempt and claim they do that all day long everyday. For the guys that truly do, my opinion is that it has been built with years of preparation either in the given sport or in other endeavors with decent carryover and that they are nowhere near their limit in most cases.

- Chris

I personally know some of them, yes, and they have a website with a forum that confirms all I said, and I've heard it from many reliable people, also.

[George Launchbury]

Hi Anathema,

I am not sure what we are going to achieve with this thread. You asked a question, got a number of (IMO good) opinions that disagreed with it, and now seem set on convincing people they are wrong. If you are confident that the advice you are getting elsewhere is better than the advice you are getting here, you should follow that advice.

A handful of people on YouTube does not represent any significant cross section of the athletic community, and it seems to me that these fellows are the exception, not the rule. Anyone who tried the approach and did not have the genetics to pull it off would no longer be training that way, so only those lucky enough to get away with it would be dispensing that advice - rather like carb-tolerant people espousing the virtues of a high-carb nutritional approach.

Regards,

George.