Thoughts on chiropractic care

[Michael Blythe]

I got a free exam from a chiropractor the other day . I thought since I broke my pelvis twice and my right femur "you can see the rod in the attached X-ray " why not get the free exam . I have no back pain . The doctor said that I have bad pelvic tilt due to a short left leg and need a heel lift . In the X-ray you can see the tilt to the left . Also some slight Scoliosis and a few minor subluxations. My question I guess is what have been some experiences with chiropractic care . She said that with a few months of care that it can be adjusted . I've heard from some people to beware.

Some background on me is I'm 41 years old 5"8 145lbs about 10/12 % bodyfat . I do f1/h1 4 days a week. I been to a seminar. I'm making slow but steady progress. On mostly PE1 to PE3 in f1/h1

[Tristan Curtis]

I come from a very chiropractic-focused upbringing and have family who work in clinics. In my experience, it all comes down to who your chrio is. I've had some amazing ones, some downright terrible ones and everything in between. Changes are long-term and can take multiple visits, but you should at least feel better after 2-3 visits. If you don't, it might be worth moving on.

 

These days I give myself an adjustment every morning when I spinal twist.

[Scott Malin]

General Advice:

 

Chiropractic care is like any other modality: it's a tool. It doesn't matter how good the practitioner of [Modality XYZ] is, if you attempt to use a rolling pin to fasten a screw the results will always be off.  When a problem requires chiropractic treatment, then do it. When it demands a different tool, use that instead. The key is to work with practitioners who use tools and approaches specific to the problem; and refer out when the needed tool isn't in their toolkit. 

 

Specific Advice:

 

With the spine and pelvis, it's important to remember that the muscles attached to it are just as or more important to the problem than the bone structure itself. There's actually an advanced Rolfing instructor in my area who addresses the spine with great success without any "adjustments" and purely through addressing the surrounding muscles. Getting at the source of a problem is key, rather than simply addressing secondary effects.

 

Kit Laughlin covers a great deal of both testing and treatment options (including proper heel inserts) for leg-length differences in his Overcome Neck & Back Pain book. If you aren't currently in pain, I would digest what he says and post your questions on his forum before attempting a treatment. Unless you intend to keel over tomorrow, it pays to educate yourself prior to committing to any solution.

[Chris Aldersley]

If you have no pain, why do you need to invest in treatment?

 

Also don't worry about these "minor subluxations", chiropractors have made their own definition that is different to all other allied health practitioners, and has little to no evidence.

[Graham Smith]

This is probably going to blow up, but I need to state it.  Chiropractic is founded on unscientific gibberish.  There is no such thing as a subluxation, and  you'd be better off relaxing your muscles with a decent massage.  Invented in 1895 by a "magnetic healer" D.D. Palmer who claimed that the knowledge of Chiropractic was passed to him from the "Other World" from deceased physician Dr. Jim Atkinson.  The founding premise which preceded the now wholly supported germ theory of disease was that ALL ailments were caused by spinal misalignments.  As such, many modern chiropractors (I confess not all) still reject the role of viruses and bacteria in disease.  At best chiropractic is unscientific fraud, and at worst it can be downright dangerous: http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

 

Any benefit derived comes from either placebo, or the adoption by some chiropractors of more rigorously studied and accepted methods.  I can virtually guarantee that if you go to a second chiropractor for a second opinion, you are likely to receive a completely different diagnosis (I've tested this at several chiropractors, most of whom completely failed to detect the 2 spinal fractures at L4 on my X-Ray!).  Always ask too how many sessions corrective treatment will take, I'd be surprised if they suggested an end date to you.

 

If you genuinely have imbalances that are causing you trouble, I would recommend a discipline with more scientific rigor such as Physiotherapy.

 

I know that there will be some out there who disagree with me based on positive experiences, but please please please do your research.  I'd hate to see you lighten your wallet for no benefit, or even worse, suffer permanent injury or death.

[Joseph Blazuk]

I'd be skeptical of somebody who orders an XR for no apparent reason, not to mention essentially an entire body XR.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) At best chiropractic is unscientific fraud, and at worst it can be downright dangerous: http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

 

 

 

LOL... this website is serious about listing Darwin Awards contenders... :D

http://whatstheharm.net/gpsnavigation.html

[Nigel Leeming]

I've had quite a bit of experience with various chiropracters, physiotherapists and osteopaths over the years, mostly for back problems. The osteopaths have been the most measured and consistent in their approach. The Physios have been quite variable and it seems to depend on who you get. Some are good, others not so. The chiropracters do talk a lot of gibberish, but again, if you get a good one, you'll get some help. As a word of warning - I once had an overenthusiastic chiropractor who 'adjusted' my neck so violently it hurt for days, and I never went back again. They also made me quite uncomfortable with their selling techniques to keep me coming regularly. Something that may help is a web site called losethebackpain; I bought their book and video for about £50 and it was money well spent as it helped me assess my asymmetries and showed me how to identify the right exercises to help correct them.

[Rob Kowalski]

I started experiencing back pain about 6 months ago, so I decided to check out a chiropractor.  First visit was $80, and I didn't even get an adjustment.  They did some tests that measured the amount of stress buildup at each point of the spine, and then suggested I get x-rays.  Second time I went it was $45, and it took about 2 minutes and he only did 2 adjustments, and then violently twisted/cracked my neck.  He then said I had to wait until next time to see the x-rays.  Third time, he finally showed me the x-rays and pointed out the problem areas of my spine.  Again, only did a minor adjustment.  He suggested I come 3 times a week for the next 3 months, but offered me 10% off I paid it all upfront.  Yeah right.

 

I asked him what good posture was, and what could be done to correct it, and he looked shocked/stumped, and hesitated at first but then said "uh, umm, just you know, try to stand up straight".  I never went back.

 

This chiropractor in particular, seemed to be focused solely on the money.  Every time I went they had me watch a short video, while I waited, about why chiropractic care is so important.  And I found it funny that they had a slide show running on the TV about how great the placebo effect is.

 

My mother in law goes to another one, who gives her exercises and stretches to work on, which seems like a better approach than "come see me daily".  

 

What I've discovered is that most of the problems (all of my problems at least), can be fixed through proper stretching and mobility exercises (like the ones found here).  Why do you think GB promotes better posture?

 

My recommendation is that if you want to see a chiropractor, find one that you trust and that recommends corrective exercises.  Otherwise, it appears you know what your conditions are, do some searches for proper exercises yourself and save yourself the money.   I would also recommend checking out Kit Laughlin's videos/website.

[Joseff Lea]

 

What I've discovered is that most of the problems (all of my problems at least), can be fixed through proper stretching and mobility exercises (like the ones found here).  Why do you think GB promotes better posture?

 

I've found similarly with a little foam rolling, some stretches from Kit laughlin's book and general Foundation work My shoulders and back are getting much better and my posture is getting much much better. I think a lot of it is to do with teaching correct movement patterns and strengthening whilst increasing mobility, but that is just speculation on my part. 

To OP I'd recommend Kit's book, not saying anything one way or another about chiropractors as I have no knowledge/experience with them but I will say it is a good idea to identify any differences in leg length and resolve any irregularities in your gait and posture, prevention of these issues is much better than cure 

[Joakim Andersson]

 

There's actually an advanced Rolfing instructor in my area who addresses the spine with great success without any "adjustments" and purely through addressing the surrounding muscles. Getting at the source of a problem is key, rather than simply addressing secondary effects.

 

I've tried rolfing too, a guy in Florida who treats professional tennis players, which suited me because my problem was in the forearm (from climbing). He stripped the muscles as he called it, going very hard and very slow. I don't know if it was unnecessarily hard but it helped. The pain and stiffness released after working on the forearm muscles and muscles in the shoulder area. Before that I had gone to an osteopath who went through my body leaving me feeling like an old man for days, cracked my wrist and told me to rest it for a month, which did exactly nothing good.

[Jon Douglas]

LOL... this website is serious about listing Darwin Awards contenders... :D

http://whatstheharm.net/gpsnavigation.html

Oh man, not to thread derail, but I had some great ones in my adventures driving all over Japan, with my Japanese-only GPS Navi... so many towns or suburbs of towns have the same name/characters, no street names (apart from really major ones like the tokaido and heiwa doori)...

I mastered the art of general to specific in the field of navigation

[Scott Malin]

I've tried rolfing too, a guy in Florida who treats professional tennis players, which suited me because my problem was in the forearm (from climbing). He stripped the muscles as he called it, going very hard and very slow. I don't know if it was unnecessarily hard but it helped. The pain and stiffness released after working on the forearm muscles and muscles in the shoulder area. Before that I had gone to an osteopath who went through my body leaving me feeling like an old man for days, cracked my wrist and told me to rest it for a month, which did exactly nothing good.

 

The technique I mentioned isn't actually Rolfing in the traditional sense, but when appropriate I agree that Rolfing can be very beneficial. One of our regular seminar attendees is a Rolfer and always has a line of people requesting his torture services.

[Michaël Van den Berg]

I have two chiropractors in my family but I am pretty neutral on the subject - I simply don't have any real experience with their treatments. I am, however, super enthusiastic about osteopathy. I've been treated by three different osteopaths over the past couple of years and at every occasion they were able to help me with a variety of capoeira-related injuries that regular physiotherapists were not able to treat successfully even after 10+ sessions.

 

The osteopaths told me up front that if they could help me it would take 2-3 sessions max, and otherwise they would refer me to someone with different expertise (PT, regular physician, et cetera). Well, I never had to go to the osteopath more than 3 times for any given injury and so far they've had a 100% success rate with me.

 

But I fully agree with Cory - do your homework and make sure that you visit the expert that is right for your problems. The good ones will either treat you successfully or immediately refer you to an appropriate practitioner if they won't be able to treat you themselves.

[Michael Blythe]

Thank you everybody for your input . I'm going to look more into the Rolfing and kits stuff. I did get two adjustments by the chiro and it did feel great .

[Graham Smith]

As we are having the discussion, this one just hit the news yesterday here in Aus. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/2013/09/29/10/52/baby-almost-died-after-chiropractic-treatment

[Jon Douglas]

As we are having the discussion, this one just hit the news yesterday here in Aus. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/2013/09/29/10/52/baby-almost-died-after-chiropractic-treatment

I was just about to post that.

[James Sagar]

Personal Bias: I have and MD degree and was formerly a neurosurgeon.

 

1. Subluxation is a real thing - it means a malalignemnt of bones at a joint space (i.e. a partial dislocation),  Im not sure how chiropractors use the term though.

2.  I would NEVER let a chiropracter "adjust" the neck of anyone I cared about.  The vertebral arteries that supply the cerebellum and brainstem +/- the occipital lobes actually go through a tunnel formed by the vertebral bodies of the cervical spine.  As a consequence, forced twisting, turning, etc can lead to arterial injury, called a dissection.  This injury can then clot and cause a stroke.  Though I was only practicing neurosurgery for a few years, I saw several patients who had this happen to them.

3.  I would recommend kits material, foam rolling (thank you Keliani), and of course strengthening the surrounding musculature with F1/H1.

4.  If you did have back pain, I would recommend working on posture -- this is the number one cause of chronic pain.

 

hope this helps and be careful!

 

J

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) was formerly a neurosurgeon (...)

 

Out of curiosity: how does one become a "former" neurosurgeon?

I can pretty much imagine the amount of study, practice and effort needed together with an incommensurate amount of time, money, desire, will and sacrifice to become one... then what happens?

[Kate Abernethy]

One possibility: some people are more suited to changing things up than having a career for life.

[James Sagar]

Out of curiosity: how does one become a "former" neurosurgeon? 

 

They have their first beautiful daughter and decide to switch specialties to radiology so they can be a good daddy...

[Michael Blythe]

I decided to save my money and spent it on kit Laughlin's 6 day stretching workshop in virginia next week . Looking forward to learning a lot.

[Craig Mallett]

Just in relation to this, Todd Hargrave has a wealth of information on his site in regards to this.  Anyone in the profession or interested would do well to read his stuff.  He does plenty of referencing to studies, so the reading might take a while.  

 

In particular, this article relates almost directly to what is being discussed here:

http://www.bettermovement.org/2010/back-pain-myths-posture-core-strength-bulging-discs/

 

some excerpts:

 

"Although some studies have found a correlation between back pain and posture, it is important to remember the rule that correlation does not equal causation. It may be that the pain is causing the bad posture and not the other way around. This is a very likely possibility. People will patients will spontaneously adopt different postural strategies when injected with a painful solution. "

 

"In one famous study, MRIs were performed on subjects who did not have back pain. Fifty two percent of the subjects had at least one bulging disc or other MRI abnormality for which surgery is sometimes recommended. Given these findings, the authors stated that: “the discovery by MRI of bulges or protrusions in people with low back pain may frequently be coincidental.†In a similar study, MRIs on individuals who had never suffered from low back pain revealed that one third had a substantial spinal abnormality and 20% under the age of 60 had a herniated disc."

 

"In a study of pain free hockey players, seventy percent were found to have abnormal pelvis or hip MRIs, and fifty four percent had labral tears. The author stated that “this study shows the limitations of depending too heavily on an MRI. A surgeon may see something in the image, but it isn’t causing a problem.â€"

 

 

 

There are links in the actual article if you want to read the studies mentioned.  

[Blairbob]

 From what I have read you have to super careful about neck adjustments. At one of the gyms I coached at, the Head Women's/Competitive Program coach went out and looked at a bunch in our area and finally found one he liked and brought him in. Nice guy who really seemed to know his stuff. Nice, little old portly fellow that said I was a mess but a lot of our kids got a lot better working with him when he would come every week or two.

 

 He flat out stated that he should be able to fix anything within a few weeks and our HC noticed he fixed his ankle which had plagued him for years with one session. He also said it shouldn't take more than a couple sessions to fix things so he eventually only a monthly checkup would do vs 2-3x a week.

 

 One of my teachers is actually a chiro besides being a neurologist and chinese medicine doc amongst other things. We definitely love to hit him up to fix our screwed up before and after seminars for quick adjustments and he gets a good laugh from how often I pop and crackle.

 He also likes how CrossFit seems to keep him in business which probably helps afford his travel/fun budget, lol.

[Joel Tomkins]

 

2.  I would NEVER let a chiropracter "adjust" the neck of anyone I cared about.  The vertebral arteries that supply the cerebellum and brainstem +/- the occipital lobes actually go through a tunnel formed by the vertebral bodies of the cervical spine.  As a consequence, forced twisting, turning, etc can lead to arterial injury, called a dissection.  This injury can then clot and cause a stroke.  Though I was only practicing neurosurgery for a few years, I saw several patients who had this happen to them.

 

My Uncle died during a neck manipulation performed by a chiropractor. Almost exactly what XRAY said here. Didn't help that the chiropractor was legally blind and didn't call an ambulance straight away, but still scary stuff!