Has anyone mastered MN/PE2 yet?

MT Nordic said:

....... Isn't copying the model the whole point?

Fred wrote the above in reference to my statement that my straddle was not quite as wide as the model's. My feeling is that there are some elements where the straddle position is used as an intermediate step between bent legs and straight legs because it provides easier leverage. It is not in the progression because we need a wide straddle for the Manna. This is akin to the straddle body rocks (FL/PE4) where it is used as a transitional element. It is starkly different than the sPL and SLS progressions where you need that mobility for future progress. So what i was saying is that in this MN progression it's silly to spend months (years?!) on this because you can't quite get your straddle wide enough. I don't believe it will impair your progress later on. That being said, my straddle is much better now because of the sPL mobility work and of course it's important to spend enough time with an element to get the most out of it. But I would still hold that striving for some unknown degree of straddle when it's not even stated what that is (90 degrees? more?) is a waste of time that would stagnate your performance and progress.

It absolutely will impair your progress later on. Do really think you can learn to press into manna without a good straddle lift? Trust me. Straddle compression is very important.

I hear you Dan, so you feel it's worthwhile spending months on this one exercise just to get straddle wider? And if so how would we know what degree of straddle to shoot for. It's definitely not stated in the exercise directions. It seems excessive to me when it's not explicitly stated anywhere. Far be it from me though, to disagree with someone who's done this a lot longer than i have. I'm sure the goals are different, too, if you're in this for a gymnastics base or purely to get stronger and more mobility?

MT Nordic said:

....... Isn't copying the model the whole point?

Fred wrote the above in reference to my statement that my straddle was not quite as wide as the model's. My feeling is that there are some elements where the straddle position is used as an intermediate step between bent legs and straight legs because it provides easier leverage. It is not in the progression because we need a wide straddle for the Manna. This is akin to the straddle body rocks (FL/PE4) where it is used as a transitional element. It is starkly different than the sPL and SLS progressions where you need that mobility for future progress. So what i was saying is that in this MN progression it's silly to spend months (years?!) on this because you can't quite get your straddle wide enough. I don't believe it will impair your progress later on. That being said, my straddle is much better now because of the sPL mobility work and of course it's important to spend enough time with an element to get the most out of it. But I would still hold that striving for some unknown degree of straddle when it's not even stated what that is (90 degrees? more?) is a waste of time that would stagnate your performance and progress.

Nothing personal MT Nordic, please let me explain :

I do not have the experience of all the advanced athletes on the boards, or the knowledge of Coach; all i have are the videos and instructions on the foundation course, and my understanding of what is required for mastery that is refined and fine tuned little by little on the forum.

When the understanding of mastery that I've built over time is challenged, like is was in this thread, first with Daniel's video, then with your claim that it is okay to move on with a straddle narrower than the model, I somehow feel compelled to call a time out for clarification and recalibration.

I feel that it is very important at two levels:

===>> Firstly, all members need to constantly see, read & hear that there is no drift from the set standard, no compromise, no short cut, no negotiation; that is why deviations from the correct form must be called - I am seeing this happening all day long in karate; the end result are black belts with terrible technical level, no strength or fitness, and no idea how bad they are! They could not defend themselves if a 12 years old went after them in the subway! You could say that it is their problem, and you would be mostly correct; the issue I have is that it reflects rather poorly on the rest of us - It is my contention that it is our collective responsibility to assist the BtGB team in passing the correct message.

===>> Secondly, training and progress is hard enough without doubting that what you are doing is correct and useful. There is a substantial difference between good enough, and mastery... As far as I know, we've been requested to test for mastery - it would be a disappointing let down to be held to anything less.

I hope that helps clarify a little bit

It was not taken as personal, Fred. You always post with a good sense of humor and a sincere attitude and I enjoy interacting with you. I guess I was trying to help the OP in saying you don't have to be doing the splits to get past this element. Your philosophy of mastery is appropriate in my mind. It is difficult, though, when we have a video shot from the side with no explanation as to how wide our legs need be. So when to move on? I think it would be nice to hear from coach or someone on what qualifies mastery with this because after all this back and forth i am still not sure! I felt mastery when i could do the exercise easily and with my legs straddled to what i felt was an appropriate amount (~90 degrees, or L-shaped). Perhaps i am wrong. That's why I like participating in these discussions. Sometimes what i visualize is not the way others view it.

The degree of straddle will differ from person to person. I don't know that there is a specific angle that qualifies this as mastered besides what is shown in the video. Personally I think 90 degrees is a good goal at first. The more important parts of this exercise is the compression through whatever degree of flexibility you have. It is appropriate that you match your compression strength with your current degree of flexibility. Obviously if there is barely any straddle then you should focus on that first.

It is also important to note that straddle flexibility is something you will work forever in gymnastic training. So as your degree of flexibility goes up you should make sure your compression follows. This is where your warmup sets will become useful.

The gold standard presented to us is the video provided with foundation 1. Strive to accomplish the same.

Dan. Very well said. That is what I was picturing and you've stated it much better than I could've. Thanks for addressing my question.

thanks for all those replies yet. Didnt think that there will be so much answers in just 1-2 days.

Unfortunatly I couldnt see the video/picture of daniel :/

I just think that reaching masteryin this PE is simply impossible if you have a somewhat "bad/normal" pencake stretch. I can get my forarms there too but I have a round back when I do this... so basically I dont even the stretch

I was hoping for some more pictures or something just to have an impression of what a "normal" person can do. I understand that people with gymnastics or even martial arts background cant really understand my "problems" but since I am not the only one a couple of "reuploads" would be cool.

I played soccer for around 18 years what just kills the flexibility and it took me almost 2 years just to get the flexibility so people say: "yeah slightly more flexible than the average person" and I almost stretch on a daily basis.

Anyway I think I cryed enough here. Time to work on it!

Actually I think I'm a bit sub-normal physically. It took me two years to get this far in Gymnastic Strength Training™, and I have made incomparably more progress since Foundation came out than in the 1.5 years before :S just be stubborn, do it even when boring and discouraging, take joy in every little improvement and it can't help but come together.

I also played soccer for 18 years and never did strength training. I also did very little stretching besides some static stuff before and after practices. I am naturally a bit more flexible than most but I think with smart stretching and active flexibility exercises you can get there. How long depends of course on your dedication and current level.

I've posted elsewhere on this forum about the active stretches needed for this. When I have more time I will reiterate them here or may just go ahead a post a video of the straddle flexibility stuff I do for stalder and the like.

did quite a few sports but the one i gave myself completely to was bmx/mountain bike.

which is why my hips are so relunctant to let go of the shape they're in but they have been improving in leaps and bounds.

i'm also naturally unflexible (couldnt touch my toes at 18) and today, thats a totally different story

Daniel Burnham said:

I also played soccer for 18 years and never did strength training. I also did very little stretching besides some static stuff before and after practices. I am naturally a bit more flexible than most but I think with smart stretching and active flexibility exercises you can get there. How long depends of course on your dedication and current level.

I've posted elsewhere on this forum about the active stretches needed for this. When I have more time I will reiterate them here or may just go ahead a post a video of the straddle flexibility stuff I do for stalder and the like.

I still play regularly is there a link to the thread you've mentioned?

Hi Badi, I'm with you in this. I've done lots of sports and have terrible flexibility (working on it every day now). I'm looking forward to doing a before and after video in the not too distant future. It _will_ come!

Aadil Siddiqi said:

I still play regularly is there a link to the thread you've mentioned?

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11928-explain-compression-to-me/?p=115427

Here is describe an exercise for building the hip flexor strength in straddle.

Daniel Burnham said:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11928-explain-compression-to-me/?p=115427

 

Here is describe an exercise for building the hip flexor strength in straddle.

Side note: These are pretty good at building the hip flexor strength for keeping your leg straight out in a pistol.

Thanks as someone prone to hip injuries, these should be really helpful

I'm slowly getting this. It's a weak area of mine like many but I'm actually surprised how steady work in both pancake straddle and straddle lifts coupled with some hip flexor stretches help this one.

While Daniel's vid is not a perfect example of what is intended in MN/PE2 since he's not returning to hollow, it looks like it might be a good assistance exercise: a motion more like keeping the legs elevated in the straddle and moving the torso to work on compression. I like specially the way you can begin by starting in a straddle hollow like FL/PE4 raise the legs and then work from there as you'll be able to raise the legs to a higher degree.

Thanks for the video Daniel, now I understand much better the movement.

I have found another great video, from Carl Paoli. Enjoy!!

On the topic of matching the level presented by the athletes presented in the video, I noticed something peculiar about MN/PE2 & PE3. The three supplementing pictures--the third one in each exercise shows a ROM inferior to what the athlete actually achieves in the video. This does not happen in other exercises. In any other exercise I can recall, the pictures show the full ROM demonstrated in the video. 

This makes me think that the third picture in V-Ups and Straddle-Ups was purposefully chosen. My interpretation of such a conscious decision is that the ROM expected of mastery is what is demonstrated in the picture, not necessarily the video.

I'd also like to support MT Nordic's point that "it's silly to spend months (years?!) on this because you can't quite get your straddle wide enough". Yes, it has been made clear time and time again on this form that no steps can be skipped--each Strength element must be mastered alongside the Mobility Element. But Pike flexibility is focused on for... well, a very long time in MN. It's peak is certainly not achieved by MN/PE2! Yet I am confident the athlete shown is pretty far along the iM progression. I can pretty easily reach the Jefferson Curl ROM shown, but I still have some trouble with the cleanliness of this exercise. I don't think I'm going to wait until I have a flat pancake to claim mastery, though.

#NoviceOpinion

NoHiddenCosts said:

I don't think I'm going to wait until I have a flat pancake to claim mastery, though.

 

#NoviceOpinion

From what I've heard, people who don't take the time to master this one will struggle with the later progressions.

Personally, I've decided to stop working MN/PE2 all together while I work on straddle hanging leg lifts and pancakes.  When I have a full pancake, I'll re-test my mastery of the straddle ups.

Bipocni said:

From what I've heard, people who don't take the time to master this one will struggle with the later progressions.

Personally, I've decided to stop working MN/PE2 all together while I work on straddle hanging leg lifts and pancakes. When I have a full pancake, I'll re-test my mastery of the straddle ups.

That sounds like a bad idea. Pancakes come much later in foundation, and you don't need a full pancake to do straddle ups - if you did, straddle ups wouldn't be in F1, but F3 or F4.

I bought this program, because I suck at programming. Every time I deviate or embellish on the program, things go bad.

Sure, the form should be according to mastery, but there's no reason to go over the top. I think that to improve in straddle ups, go do straddle ups, or possibly tuck ups.

Bipocni said:

From what I've heard, people who don't take the time to master this one will struggle with the later progressions.

 

Personally, I've decided to stop working MN/PE2 all together while I work on straddle hanging leg lifts and pancakes.  When I have a full pancake, I'll re-test my mastery of the straddle ups.

I feel like Coach Sommer would not craft a progression that couldn't be achieved without straying from the directions... It seems odd that one should have to do the equivalent of MN/PE5.5 and MN/PE6+>iM to master PE2. 

i dont see why you wouldnt shoot for doing the jefferson curls in a Straddle if you've already mastered the iM in a Pike.

what seems to be thwarting me when i play with these from time to time is getting into the exact same position i would be either in a straddle leg lift and fighting for a wide straddle and doing the same shape while straddling up and balancing on my sit bones with PPT.

guess it realy has to do with learning how to do the right engagement of muscles to facilitate more ROM, crampy goodness and mastery. holding out my indo board barrel and compressing to high heavens and going for that wide straddle, i get some SERIOUS action in my quads. its almost a feeling as if the all the muscle fibers were tugging on the entire length of the femur. yeck. gives me cramps just thinking about it

more time practicing for me.

Guys, maybe this has been said in others threads but, I have to say it here.

Straddle legs lift with back flat on the wall. Shock therapy. A HELL, at first, a medium HELL then. Results? The higher MN/PE2 at this point and maybe in 1 month I can add volume to shot mastery.

Seriously. And watch out, not straddle leg lifts with a round back without wall... no no... with a flat back on the wall. Significant more harder than normal straddle leg lfts. Improving your ROM drastically because it's fu**** hard lift the legs without arching your back, specially lower back.

Take note friends. 

Hi Adriano!

Are you talking about this pose (see attached file), but with a wall to avoid flexing the spine?

How long can you hold the position??

I can't lift the legs for more than 2 seconds, my quads start to cramp!!

Regars from Barcelona!