Perfect Form Front Lever Critique

[hourjack]

I've got a problem with the form in the full front lever. I can hold the front lever for 20 seconds but I hate my form. Every single attempt my thighs are above my body and not in line with my back. Can you give advice on how to clean that and get the perfect front lever ?

Here is my Front Lever Hold on a table (20sec)

arms are bent but my "thighs above back" problem is very little


Here is my Front Lever Hold on a bar (20sec)

http://youtu.be/PKzLAerK2H4?t=24s
here its very noticeable that my form is crap and my thighs are stuck above my back for some reason.
I tried arching my back and my thighs and lower back were in line but my calves were very low. Help.

[Joshua Slocum]

Your arms are quite bent: that's the first thing I would correct. 

 

You should train easier variations of the front lever with proper form to build up the strength required to hold the full front lever with correct form. 

[Frahebede]

I know your problem. Your back is not retracted, its protracted like in a dragon flag/body lever. You have to retract your scapula and your body will be in perfect shape. Take a picture of your front lever from the side and compare it with zalimhan kambalovs and look at the shape of his back. He has the world record front lever and his form is perfect, when the back is retracted correctly, the shape of the back looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if3oQjlQIj0

Watch this video and look how his back curves in and the lower back is completely flat while in yours your lower back and upper back are rounded. My friend had this exact same problem and he trained one leg front levers and other easier variations with a retracted scapula and now he has a perfect one with straight arms too.

[Brian Li]

Protraction does not make the thighs go higher than the back. It's because he is piking that's causing his body line to be mal-aligned.

[Alessandro Mainente]

is typical in the street wk see an arch in the lower back, they find that arch the back to push the hips up is much more easier then hold an hollow body position. since the most of their progressions have not the quality (and i can say that simply because on the beginning of september i was a judge in a calistenich meeting in italy) and the technique as first goal, they use some different ways to achieve skills. probably they cannot do the first element of Foundation for the front lever.

[hourjack]

@Frahebede thank you so much man. I am a fan of Zalimhan and thats the first reason i wanted to improve my form. I just didn't know how he does that back shape. I tried retracting the scapulas and here is my attempt from 5 minutes ago:

[Frahebede]

is typical in the street wk see an arch in the lower back, they find that arch the back to push the hips up is much more easier then hold an hollow body position. since the most of their progressions have not the quality (and i can say that simply because on the beginning of september i was a judge in a calistenich meeting in italy) and the technique as first goal, they use some different ways to achieve skills. probably they cannot do the first element of Foundation for the front lever.

I thought front lever was supposed to be done with a retracted scapula, not a hollow position. Wouldn't hollow be protracted so isn't that incorrect?

[Alessandro Mainente]

i simply can't understand how i possible to use retraction in front lever. 

with full retraction and depression (is easier to hold the depression) the lats and rhomboid are completely shortened.

is knew that a muscle is not able to express the maximum force/strength when it is completely shortened BUT when it is in a position of semi complete elongation. so if you fully retract in the beginning you are using all the ROM of some major pulling muscles involved in the front lever. how do you expect to produce the maximum force with rhomboids and lats when you have to lower down into front lever? this not makes sense. 

i'm not saying that is not possible but for someone who is learning the front lever...the retraction is not the best way to generate strength.

you build up mobility in scapula and in the retraction motion if you practice retraction/protraction when you have previously mastered the front lever.

i.e. i can do retraction protraction in tuck front lever. because i've built up more strength with advanced version of front lever.

i suppose that with a victorian you can practice retraction/protraction during the full front lever, since you have impressive strenght in the point where the lats are super shortened and for a "human" people weak.

[Ralph Palutke]

so you are saying the bodyshape of a front lever should be the same as in a bodylever?

[Joshua Slocum]

i simply can't understand how i possible to use retraction in front lever. 

with full retraction and depression (is easier to hold the depression) the lats and rhomboid are completely shortened.

is knew that a muscle is not able to express the maximum force/strength when it is completely shortened BUT when it is in a position of semi complete elongation. so if you fully retract in the beginning you are using all the ROM of some major pulling muscles involved in the front lever. how do you expect to produce the maximum force with rhomboids and lats when you have to lower down into front lever? this not makes sense. 

i'm not saying that is not possible but for someone who is learning the front lever...the retraction is not the best way to generate strength.

you build up mobility in scapula and in the retraction motion if you practice retraction/protraction when you have previously mastered the front lever.

i.e. i can do retraction protraction in tuck front lever. because i've built up more strength with advanced version of front lever.

i suppose that with a victorian you can practice retraction/protraction during the full front lever, since you have impressive strenght in the point where the lats are super shortened and for a "human" people weak.

 

A front lever is performed with shoulders in a roughly neutral position. In order to hold them there you're going to have to be actively pulling them towards a retracted position in order to resist gravity. 

 

It certainly is possible to hold a front lever with retracted scapula, but it's significantly harder.  

[Alessandro Mainente]

We are saying the same thing Joshua.

My pov is that you naturally increase the level of retraction as you are reaching the horizontal position but achieve the full retraction is very very hard.

For the same reason build up a program that focus on the retraction at the beginning and then move into front lever does not make sense. You are engaging the lats near the end of their  ROM (to fully retract the scapula) before the beginning of the movement. when all the fibers are squeezed you cannot produce to much force.

[Brian Li]

I thought retracting in a FL makes it easier to hold because it puts the back in a stable position to pull. Wouldn't a protracted FL be harder to hold than a neutral scapulae position FL (retraction) just like how a retracted planche is harder to hold than a protracted planche?

 

When I do my front levers I always retract as much as I can in the inverted hang and then lower to FL while trying to maintain as much retraction as possible even though you will lose some retraction as you lower. Isn't this correct?

[Vincent Stoyas]

That's how I've understood to do front levers. Retract as much as possible and lower in. You won't be fully protracted or retracted. It's somewhere in the middle.

[Alessandro Mainente]

yeah, Coach explained that situation grabbing my shoulders and my arms in one seminar. difficult to explain, but easy with hands-on demonstration.

[Parth Rajguru]

You're not ready to train the full lay yet. Your arms bend and the angle is not correct because you lack the SASS (Straight Arm Scapular Strength) for the full lay now. Focus on building volume with an easier variation (with perfect form).

[hourjack]

Hey guys I have another attempt with straight arms and retracted scapulas. I think the form is getting better.
So what do you think ?

[Frahebede]

I thought retracting in a FL makes it easier to hold because it puts the back in a stable position to pull. Wouldn't a protracted FL be harder to hold than a neutral scapulae position FL (retraction) just like how a retracted planche is harder to hold than a protracted planche?

 

When I do my front levers I always retract as much as I can in the inverted hang and then lower to FL while trying to maintain as much retraction as possible even though you will lose some retraction as you lower. Isn't this correct?

No a protracted front lever is much easier to hold than a retracted one. My friend could do a protracted one for like 5-6 months and so he did some one legged ones and negatives with a more retracted scapula and it took him about 5-6 months to get a more retracted scapula full front lever(neutral scapula not fully retracted obviously as the people above said it was really really hard). So yeah it was much harder for him to get it neutral than protracted and he actually learned a protracted front lever in literally like 2 months and he mainly did dragon flags with protracted hollow body so body levers and then he got full front lever but also of course training the lever variations with a hollow body cuz he thought it was the correct way.

So front lever is a neutral scapula position but you should be focusing on retracting the scapula as much as you can in order to get it neutral right? And protracted is definitely easier than neutral and the scapula is protracted in a dragon flag/body lever so the scapula position in body lever and front lever is different.

[Frahebede]

@Frahebede thank you so much man. I am a fan of Zalimhan and thats the first reason i wanted to improve my form. I just didn't know how he does that back shape. I tried retracting the scapulas and here is my attempt from 5 minutes ago:

Nice man you are much more retracted than before it looks a lot better. I think that back shape is just really retracted so I think as you get stronger in retracting in front lever than your back shape will eventually look like zalimhans. So just keep trying to retract as much as you can and it'll get better also do negatives and start as retracted as you can in the top position and then lower down.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) the SASS (Straight Arm Scapular Strength) (...)

 

Are you making these up as you go raja?  

SSSSASSSS is Super Stabilized Straight Single Arm Simple Scapular Street Strength?

[Cody Ward]

Ok, just to stop this now before the wrong information gets circulated, you are NOT fully retracting in a FL. As stated above by Josh and Alex, you are looking for a neutral position with a feeling of "widening" the scaps. Try to imagine you are prying the bar apart with your hands. You will use some retraction to hold this, but you are making it significantly harder to hold a FL and will end up spinning your wheels on it. If you start in an inverted hang, maybe a little bit lower, and fully retract, then lower to a FL and find you can't hold it, it is not because you are too weak for it (mostly) but that this is improper form. Look at the body lever form. If this were in a foundation forum, I could go in much greater detail, but for now.... Press hands to hips, tight core, toes pointed, neutral head, and widen the scaps.

What are the lats supposed to feel like during a proper FL?

One time while experimenting with proper activation, I lowered into a straddle FL and felt an extremely strong activation in the lats and rear delts and it was easy to hold it. However, I haven't been able to do the same thing again since then. Was I doing it properly then?

If so, how am I supposed to re create that? The pulling the bar/rings apart cue doesn't seem to work for me.

[Cody Ward]

Ok, just to stop this now before the wrong information gets circulated, you are NOT fully retracting in a FL. As stated above by Josh and Alex, you are looking for a neutral position with a feeling of "widening" the scaps. Try to imagine you are prying the bar apart with your hands. You will use some retraction to hold this, but you are making it significantly harder to hold a FL and will end up spinning your wheels on it. If you start in an inverted hang, maybe a little bit lower, and fully retract, then lower to a FL and find you can't hold it, it is not because you are too weak for it (mostly) but that this is improper form. Look at the body lever form. If this were in a foundation forum, I could go in much greater detail, but for now.... Press hands to hips, tight core, toes pointed, neutral head, and widen the scaps.

What are the lats supposed to feel like during a proper FL?

One time while experimenting with proper activation, I lowered into a straddle FL and felt an extremely strong activation in the lats and rear delts and it was easy to hold it. However, I haven't been able to do the same thing again since then. Was I doing it properly then?

If so, how am I supposed to re create that? The pulling the bar/rings apart cue doesn't seem to work for me.

[Parth Rajguru]

Are you making these up as you go raja?  

SSSSASSSS is Super Stabilized Straight Single Arm Simple Scapular Street Strength?

 No, it is a term used by Ido Portal.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

 No, it is a term used by Ido Portal.

 

Ahhhhh, Das Guru Esstraordinaire..........

[Frahebede]

Ok, just to stop this now before the wrong information gets circulated, you are NOT fully retracting in a FL. As stated above by Josh and Alex, you are looking for a neutral position with a feeling of "widening" the scaps. Try to imagine you are prying the bar apart with your hands. You will use some retraction to hold this, but you are making it significantly harder to hold a FL and will end up spinning your wheels on it. If you start in an inverted hang, maybe a little bit lower, and fully retract, then lower to a FL and find you can't hold it, it is not because you are too weak for it (mostly) but that this is improper form. Look at the body lever form. If this were in a foundation forum, I could go in much greater detail, but for now.... Press hands to hips, tight core, toes pointed, neutral head, and widen the scaps.

What do you mean by "widening" the scaps? Don't really understand this. Also you said to imagine you are prying the bar apart with your hands so which way are you trying to pry it? Do you turn your palms facing each other or do you turn your palms away from each other?

[Frahebede]

You are prying your hands apart   <------> with palms facing away from you/ towards your body/ you are looking at the back of your hands. As with Planche activation, i find it helpful for people to do a "dry run" of the exercise rather than under load. So stand up, put your hands out in front of you in a normal width grip. Grip a dowel if you wish. Now RETRACT as hard as you can, and note the pulling motion and your hands moving closer to you significantly. Now, same stance/grip, and PRY. You should feel your chest flatten somewhat, but not significantly. You will slightly retract, but only to about a neutral position. Not retracted nor protracted. Your hands should not come closer to you in the same manner of the retraction. Now repeat between the retraction and prying/widening. Remember under load, you will also be pressing down towards your hips. If time allows today, ill see if i can post some pics or something if there is confusion still. 

Ok I think I understand but I want to be sure im doing it correct. I just attempted it like this and it feels a lot harder to hold! I just did some advanced tuck and one leg to make sure I have the form down but idk if I am still retracted too much because before I knew this i trained only retracting as much as possible as I thought that was the correct way. But anyways heres a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPxF2UCZIe0

Is this correct?