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Michael Zeiters

Shoulder Pain During Dips

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Michael Zeiters

   Hello everyone, about a years ago I hurt my right shoulder bench pressing and it has never been the same. I went to the doctor and he gave me a few rehab exercises to do with a 5 pound dumbbell along with the advise that I should never do any kind of overhead or incline pressing because it is bad for the shoulder :facepalm: . I did the exercises for 3 months or so with out any change. During that time I didn't workout at all and tried to rest. About 3 months ago I started doing calisthenics with some front lever and handstand training. My shoulder still bugs me but not really any pain. There is a lot of "popping sounds" though. The only exercise where it hurts bad is at the bottom part of the dip when my arm hits 90 degrees. The pain is in my front delt, the inside of my shoulder an inch or so behind my front delt, the back of my shoulder, and along the side of my trap where it runs close to the shoulder. Before and after every workout I perform Ido Portal's shoulder routine and do a few different shoulder stretches that Joshua Naterman showed on his YouTube channel. 

Please help me figure out what is wrong!

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FREDERIC DUPONT

Welcome to the forum Michael Z.

Your problem sounds like it could be some sort of impingement of the sub-acromial space; you should probably not do dips at this stage of your rehab; to the contrary, you might want to take a good look at Foundation 1.

I've had shoulder surgery last December (subscapularis tendon repair), and have been doing F1 since February... My shoulders have not been this healthy and strong since I stopped competing in the late '80s. :)

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Sean Whitley

See a different doctor if possible. When I went about forearm tendonitis they wouldn't even look at it, just said "you're not competing, you're doing it recreationally, so stop gymnastics". Seems they'd rather I stopped exercising and return a few years later with a host of obesity related problems then fix me and let me continue doing something I enjoy.......

I'm not a physio so my advice may be wrong, but three months of just using 5lb doing the same exercises doesn't sound like it would help too much. Physio needs to be progressive with a very slow increase in intensity to help regain strength. Maybe continue the exercises you were doing but try and very slowly increase the weight. Also stop doing dips for a while and work on the dip progressions: pushups on your knees, pushups, then dips. Aim for maybe 20 reps of each, 3-5 sets, slow and controlled with good form (2 seconds up and down would eliminate all momentum and mean you're working the muscles fully). Take your front lever back to tuck lever until you're at 60 seconds (or even dead hangs on a bar or hanging leg raises), basically reduce everything to easier progressions and very slowly build it back up. You can be surprised at how effective repeating some of the basic stuff can be

But best advice, if possible see another doctor, preferably someone with sports specific knowledge

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Michael Zeiters

Thank you both for the replies. I actually got F1 not too long ago and wasn't super happy with it. It moved too slow for me and it wasn't what I expected. I returned it a week or so after I purchased it. I have read the countless stories on how it has changed so many people's fitness level and health but it just didn't do it for me. I have been looking at LittleBeastm's programs online and I'm thinking about giving it a shot. I guess for right now I'm going to rest the shoulder by cutting back a bit and avoiding any kind of dipping motion.

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Coach Sommer

I find this attitude puzzling. You are aware that many people have had great success with F1 but, because the program didn't match your preconceived notions of what it should be, despite your not being an expert in GST, you decided to not follow it?

You can lead a horse to water ...

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Alessandro Mainente

The LB programs are made on his self-taught knowledge. Basing on what he said, he got a bicep tendon tear due to inappropriate training. This is only an example.

You can choose to risk or follow who have just a "little" knowledge more then him.

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Michael Zeiters

The LittleBeastm program I was looking at is only 20 bucks and I thought what the heck, I'll give it a go. That's all. I meant no offense to you coach. I should probably give F1 another shot. I'm by no means an expert in GST and I realize the ignorance of my previous post. Happy training everyone.

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Sean Whitley

Your post said you returned F1 a week after purchasing it? LBM's training plan won't give results in just a week. And if you want to fix the shoulder pain which was the original purpose of the post, you want a slow progressing training plan with easier activities (or seemingly easier) that allows your shoulder time to catch up to what your arms are doing. I may be wrong, but LBM's program, or his new collaboration with fitness faq's daniel, is probably going to be a similar style to weight training -low volume, high intensity. Rehab/rehab routines are the exact opposite - high volume, low intensity. Videos of LBM's students have them working muscle ups, stuff your shoulder really won't agree with, however his training plan may also have easier progressions, I don't know

 

I'll just leave this here. He specifically mentions shoulder pain in the second half. It hits home pretty hard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp96iqjm_yk

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Michael Zeiters

I wasn't planning on doing ANY type of serious workout program until my shoulder is better. I've been doing basic handstand and front lever work along with some pull ups and push ups for upper body because I feel no shoulder pain when performing these exercises. I'm just trying to maintain some lever of strength while I figure out what to do with my shoulder. I know LBm's program wouldn't show results after a week. No program will. I understand you need slow and steady progress to get better, but this topic wasn't meant to debate training programs. I just want my shoulder healthy again. I think I'll try to find a new doc and see what's up.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, they're much appreciated. If you have any others, please feel free to share them.

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Jon Douglas

Heal fast :) We'll be here and happy to make suggestions when your shoulder is up to it.

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Sean Whitley

Have you tried soft tissue massage or trigger point therapy? I've just dusted off my copy of 'The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook' and am working through the inner elbow pain section. Deep massage at one particular point in the tricep mentioned in the book seems to have completely stopped my elbow pain for now (note to self, be more aware of the ulna nerve next time). It works on the idea that a problem in one muscle refers pain to another part of your body. The shoulder section tells you how to massage all the way from the neck to biceps and parts of the spine. There's too much in here for me to recommend a particular point for you to try massaging. The book was only £10 of amazon, and I guess even if it doesnt work, its worth it for learning about the basic anatomy surrounding the affected area

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Mats Trane

The only exercise where it hurts bad is at the bottom part of the dip when my arm hits 90 degrees.

Please help me figure out what is wrong!

Get an X-ray of your shoulder. I had the same problem when doing dips. I got an x-ray that showed problems with my AC-joint.

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Mats Trane

I actually got F1 not too long ago and wasn't super happy with it. It moved too slow for me and it wasn't what I expected. I returned it a week or so after I purchased it. I have read the countless stories on how it has changed so many people's fitness level and health but it just didn't do it for me. .

Reconsider getting it again. Before F1 came out I had all sorts of different strenght moves like FL, Bl, RC, OAC etc. But with my "homemade" program I was getting injuries every now and then (including the shoulder injury mentioned above). F1 has/is giving me the foundation/basic strenght that I was/is missing. When I looked at F1 the first time I thought, this will be easy but I was wrong. I found weak links and also realized that my own programing was unbalanced. Once you get into F1 and have done it for a few months you will find out how well balanced and affective it is. A week will not tell you alot. Give it at least 12 weeks.

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Michael Zeiters

So I saw the doc today. He said that from what he can see(without an MRI) I have no problems with my rotator cuff :) . The X-rays showed that my AC Joint is a tad inflamed on the right side which is the bad shoulder. Until I get an MRI, there's no way of telling for sure what is wrong but the doctor guessed a Labrum tear. He said after we do the MRI, if it is in fact a labrum tear, we will look at my options. The doctor said surgery is the only option to repair it completely, but I also could just tone back my activity level and avoid the movements that cause pain and not get surgery. I however, do not want to do this because I'll need healthy shoulders for GST and my future career in the Marine Corps. If anyone has had this procedure done or knows of anyone, please share your/his/her experience.

Also, If I get this done, I'll be purchasing F1 again for sure. The shoulder mobility and strengthening exercises will be invaluable.

Thanks

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Jake Lawrance

Well, the MRI scan can't tell you a lot, it usually doesn't reveal what is wrong with your shoulder as actual tissue is difficult to be seen on it (as far as I've been told). What you described with the dipping pain is exactly what I had, so yes the doctor is right saying that there is a problem with the acromial joint but I wouldn't agree so much with needing a labral repair. Unless you felt a huge incredible pain in your shoulder during a specific time and now this is happening, then you probably will need a repair, however, if this is just the case of a developed pain (came along all of a sudden) it is probably just a case of impingement or inflammation (don't take my word on it though, I'm no expert). If you decide to go for surgery be aware you will be out of training for  good 6 months. My sister had her shoulder done up and basically went into depression as she was restricted from climbing, kayaking, surfing and all the stuff that's good out there  ;) and you WILL have to start off really small after surgery, literally, maybe 3 exercises for 1 set with less than half of the intensity you worked at before the surgery. It is a long road of recovery, and even longer if you break your labrum when you're in your cast.

 

So with that said, I'd highly recommend physio, rehab + stability work and learning a priority for maybe 6 months before considering surgery, that's what I did, I still have pain it some extreme ranges of motion but nothing that interrupts my training (I'm now back on track for vertical pressing). 

 

Lastly, you need to check the Marine Corps health standards for getting in, some surgeries and health issues will prevent you from getting in, even medical steroids from a young age can stop you from getting in - at least that's the case with the Royal Marines.

 

Good luck pal, don't worry about time, I suspect you have many years before the age restriction for the Corps hits you  :)

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Daniel Burnham

I have two shoulder tears in the same shoulder one slap and one bankhart lesion. I lived with the bankhart for almost 7 years and was ok for a while. I just tore my labrum a few weeks ago whic apparently is common for people who have bankhart lesions.

The MRI with contrast will show the tear. It is pretty clear on mine. I've visited 3 doctors. 2 agreed I should have surgery if I wanted to continue gymnastics. Note this is the whole sport not just GST. I am actually mostly able to compensate for static holds. It's the dynamic movements that get me.

I plan to have surgery in two weeks and will be out for the competitive season. Physical therapy has helped but I know that I would never be able to do highbar or rjng swings again without surgery. It's really all about how bad your tear is and what you really want to do.

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Jake Lawrance

My bad, I completely forgot about the types of tears and the intensity of it  :facepalm:

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Michael Zeiters

From what I can tell, and I'm clearly not a doctor, my tear isn't really that bad. I've been working out on it for over a year and the only thing that gave me problems were dips and bench press. You would think I would have pain in more than one movement if it were bad. My doctor sounded optimistic that I would be able to recover in 2-3 months but we can't be sure until I get the MRI done. This MRI is also different than the average one they give to most people. The name escapes me at the moment but it involves "dye" being injected into my shoulder before the MRI to get a better picture of what's up. But again, it might not even be a Labrum problem at all and we're still keeping the diagnosis up in the air.

Also, about the Marine Corps, I'm going to look into what their policy is to surgery and if it will effect my career choice. I think it's also worth mentioning that my end goal is Force Reconnisanse which is an elite unit within the corps. Their physical standards are among the best in the military so having good shoulders is a must. Thanks.

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FREDERIC DUPONT

(...) The name escapes me at the moment but it involves "dye" being injected into my shoulder before the MRI to get a better picture of what's up (...)

 

Arthro MRI - they inject a contrast liquid into the joint capsule itself that allows to better see partial tears of tendons, and maybe other things too. :)

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Mikkel Ravn

I had surgery for a Bankart lesion in 2007, and it was the right choice for me, in order to maintain an active lifestyle in the long run. Today my shoulder is stronger and more stable than ever, although somewhat more restricted in its rom than the other shoulder. This is especially apparent during German hangs and dislocates.

I'd have to say that rehabbing was gruelling. Post surgery the shoulder was extremely weak, and it took ~6-12 months to just get basic functionality back. It took another two years to get acceptable Rom back, and I'm still working on that. In the first three years, the endurance of the shoulder was also quite poor, and if I had been climbing for a couple of hours, I would have a droning, lingering numbness or pain for the following 24 hours. Eventually that disappeared, but it took time and a big effort.

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Michael Zeiters

Went to the Surgeon a couple days ago. The Arthro MRI showed a partial tear of the Labrum and the labrum now hangs off the bone a bit. Planning on having surgery within the next month to reattach the labrum and start recovering. Doc said it'll be 6 months before I'm 100% again. Planning on doing all the PT and such to help me back as soon as possible. Once I'm cleared, I'll be purchasing Foundation 1 and Handstand 1 to help me get back into training. I figure the mobility alone will help strengthen my shoulder and hopefully bring me back up to normal. Thank you everyone for your help. We truly have a great community here. 

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