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3bears

Prevention of overtraining through periodization

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3bears

Do you incorporate any kind periodization nto your training?

My own went like this in the past (unfortunately): train hard for a long time=> injure => detrain, rehab and recover=>train hard again (to the point you're barely recovering). I still made very significant gains but suspect I could get much further with proper periodization introduced.

Right now I'm into 9th week of very heavy volume training (my sessions can last 5-8 hours...) and I'm starting I'm pushing it again. Literature I had consulted doesn't recommend heavy training for over 8-12 weeks without "unloading" stage.

I'm familiar with a couple basic modes of periodization (depends on a sport):
1) Train for hypertrophy (weeks) => train for strength (weeks) => train for power/speed (week) => skills, for some sports (weeks)=> unloading (weeks) before competition

2) Week to week periodization: most basic version is train super-hard one week, train easy next week.

3) 8-12 weeks of very heavy strength training, followed by same period of time of lighter training focusing on endurance, form, skill, control. Repeats.

I do not have patience for #3 mode, I know this, neither I need more competition sport oriented #1 kind...Week-to-week periodization seems to be more appealing.
Do you craft periodization routine? Especially if you train one or another kind of aerial circus skills where endurance and strength are both equally important?

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Philip Chubb

I find a lot of the issues with overtraining have to do with under recovery. While periodization can help, are you sleeping 9 hours nightly? Can you nap in between training sessions? Staying away from food that would give your recovery abilities more to handle?

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3bears

I find a lot of the issues with overtraining have to do with under recovery. While periodization can help, are you sleeping 9 hours nightly? Can you nap in between training sessions? Staying away from food that would give your recovery abilities more to handle?

Man, I can only sleep 6 hours, max 7 hours, ever throughout 40 years of my life...it's individual; there's no min requied time. Some people need 10, some need 5. I know atheletes with no history of injury or overtraining who sleep 6 hours. In fact, if I sleep 8 hours it usually means waking up with mean headache. I never nap, and I'm on a strict organic raw food regimen. Successful athletes employ periodization, so it's time to introduce it.

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Daniel Burnham

What Alex has said is the truth. Sure people acclimate to different sleep schedules but it is generally known that around 9 is the best for recovery. Total time isn't as important as number of uninterrupted cycles. Cycadian rhythm is super important.

About the food... Better food will help you recover. Period. First importance is getting enough. Secondary is type. Make your diet 1/2 to 3/4 vegetables of differing color and tell me how you feel in a few weeks.

Now to your original assumption. Periodization certainly helps. That's why the foundation series aren't a simple linear program. I've used differing types of periodization over the years but found it doesn't affect recovery as much as it improves gains. With that said you definitely need to deload. Not one day but an entire week at least to optimize recovery. Generally deloads present the self naturally in my cycle but make sure they are there.

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3bears

No, 9 hours is not necessarily best for recovery.

I get sick if I sleep 9 hours and I never do. It's all bull.

I know all about food and quite an expert on this, I assure you.

I don't want to go into pointless discussion about "food" or "sleep" here, as there will be no agreement and there's Nutrition forum here.

This question is about periodization schedules...Let's keep this thread about periodization if wish to contribute, which I appreciate. De-load is true...but it feels like slacking. Then, for how long to deload is an issue (not to loose strength). I found before that deloading greatly improved skills. A week of deloading used here and there...or this: 2 weeks heavy, 1 week deloading. I believe even 2 weeks straight might be beneficial, followed by 3 heavy weeks, etc.

It seems that most sources indicate that heavy and light periods of training must be approx. equal in length. The problem is that when you worked hard for 10 weeks to gain something, and then, you're unloading for 10 weeks--you're going to lose your strength gains...so, this interval should definitely be shorter. I think 2 unloading weeks is about maximum, though.

I, personally, don't believe that 8-hour training sessions (which I do) are in any way beneficial...I do it because of addiction alone and being bored with everything else in life. In fact, a 2 hour session would yield the same (or better) results probably. So, perhaps when "I feel like crap and want to crawl in a hole and die" feeling takes over, it means simply not training and letting your body have its way...but then, it may escalate into "slacking". I think lack of making progress on skills is the biggest indicator of the immediate need to unload/deload, because when you train hard you know you're not under-loading at least--which can be another reason for lacking progress. "Take no prisoners" doesn't work. Age comes into play too. Sometimes I ask myself if I'm simply too old for anything and "can't teach old dog new tricks" stuff. Many days all I can do is cry when I think of my training, as I feel I won't even be able to hang off the bar that day... while many people like to comment on my strength when I train. I think as one gets older periodization in training becomes super-important.

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Jon Douglas

FWIW this is taken care of in the programming for the gymnasticbodies courses, which scheduling I've not yet heard anyone complain about

Daniel's also made huge strength and skill increases in the past year or so, including planche, cross and manna, so regardless of whether you agree with him its worth listening to his advice on these topics :)

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Chris Hobbs

One of the schools of fitness I pursued a couple years back was Scott Sonnon's CST system. I certified and all that jazz ... but I mention it because Scott is a huge proponent of recovery especially due to his particular genetic hurdles as he calls them. There are probably some ideas from that pool of knowledge that you could put to use.

 

One of the big ideas is waving intensity, usually across a four day micro cycle and a 28 day macro cycle. There is a no intensity, low intensity, moderate intensity, and high intensity day. Work out as much as you like but keep the activities performed on the day that corresponds with their relative intensity level. This alone could make a pretty large impact on your recovery. Across the macro cycle you are building towards a given goal so volume or weight climbs accordingly. Food for thought at any rate.

 

- Chris

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FREDERIC DUPONT

(...) "can't teach old dog new tricks" (...)

 

That is also the feeling I have reading your posts... :)

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Philip Chubb

Man, I can only sleep 6 hours, max 7 hours, ever throughout 40 years of my life...it's individual; there's no min requied time. Some people need 10, some need 5. I know atheletes with no history of injury or overtraining who sleep 6 hours.

Sure you do. But considering you ended up injured and detraining, I doubt you are one of these people.

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Daniel Burnham

Thinking you might be a troll but I'll bite. What exactly are you training for 8 hours? And also if you are getting injured you should probably cut that in half or less.

The next thing. If you insist to not take good advice fine. Go ahead use one of those periodization protocols you found and go to town. However know that they aren't meant for recovery per se but as a way to continue gains indefinitely.

Also talk all you want about your sleep but I guarantee if you are training more hours than you are sleeping you will find that overtraining becomes a constant in your life.

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Guest

Stop overthinking and listen to the experts. Obviously we don't know your personal history, but people like Charm, Daniel, and Coach Sommer know more about GST than you will probably ever know. Stop doubting, put your pride aside, and do Foundation.

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Mikkel Ravn

No, 9 hours is not necessarily best for recovery.I get sick if I sleep 9 hours and I never do. It's all bull.I know all about food and quite an expert on this, I assure you.I don't want to go into pointless discussion about "food" or "sleep" here, as there will be no agreement and there's Nutrition forum here.This question is about periodization schedules...Let's keep this thread about periodization if wish to contribute, which I appreciate. De-load is true...but it feels like slacking. Then, for how long to deload is an issue (not to loose strength). I found before that deloading greatly improved skills. A week of deloading used here and there...or this: 2 weeks heavy, 1 week deloading. I believe even 2 weeks straight might be beneficial, followed by 3 heavy weeks, etc.It seems that most sources indicate that heavy and light periods of training must be approx. equal in length. The problem is that when you worked hard for 10 weeks to gain something, and then, you're unloading for 10 weeks--you're going to lose your strength gains...so, this interval should definitely be shorter. I think 2 unloading weeks is about maximum, though.I, personally, don't believe that 8-hour training sessions (which I do) are in any way beneficial...I do it because of addiction alone and being bored with everything else in life. In fact, a 2 hour session would yield the same (or better) results probably. So, perhaps when "I feel like crap and want to crawl in a hole and die" feeling takes over, it means simply not training and letting your body have its way...but then, it may escalate into "slacking". I think lack of making progress on skills is the biggest indicator of the immediate need to unload/deload, because when you train hard you know you're not under-loading at least--which can be another reason for lacking progress. "Take no prisoners" doesn't work. Age comes into play too. Sometimes I ask myself if I'm simply too old for anything and "can't teach old dog new tricks" stuff. Many days all I can do is cry when I think of my training, as I feel I won't even be able to hang off the bar that day... while many people like to comment on my strength when I train. I think as one gets older periodization in training becomes super-important.

Wow, 3bears, either you're a very thorough troll, or you have some serious issues going on. Sounds like you need to sort your life out and worry less about training.

Training can be a central part of one's life, but even the pro's have other stuff going on.

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Jono

You need to train smartly to avoid burning out. What I've found is that, the program that feels "slightly on the easier side" is the better one. So many times this has happened to me, and I think "well I'll start making it harder". Then within a week or so I feel burnt out and then stop.

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Mats Trane

You know you have overtrained when:

You dont progress

Sleep bad

Get injuries

After following GB since 2008, I have to say the best thing that has happened is the Foundation series. Just the programing part is worth the purchase. I just wished I would have had it earlier. It would have saved me alot of time from missed out training because of injuries.

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FREDERIC DUPONT

(...) I just wished I would have had it earlier. It would have saved me alot of time from missed out training because of injuries.

 

You bet!

35 years earlier would have been great! :)

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Connor Davies

After following GB since 2008, I have to say the best thing that has happened is the Foundation series. Just the programing part is worth the purchase. I just wished I would have had it earlier. It would have saved me alot of time from missed out training because of injuries.

I wasted so much time... :facepalm:

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Jeffrey Wijnans

I dont want to get into a what is overtraining debate but imho people are pulling the "overtraining" card way too quick. Overtraining is a serious conditions which takes an athlete more than a week to recover from. Its rather overreaching what most peopel are talking about. There is nothing wrong with planned overtraining followed by a solid deload period. Dont get me wrong sure you need to be aware of signs of overreaching (not sleeping, decreased appetite/libido/energie lvl's etc) but it's only overtraining when a person meets those several of those criterea for a longer period of time i.e. military personel after (Im dutch so this might be different were you live) basic training/bootcamp etc.

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Connor Davies

I dont want to get into a what is overtraining debate but imho people are pulling the "overtraining" card way too quick. Overtraining is a serious conditions which takes an athlete more than a week to recover from. Its rather overreaching what most peopel are talking about. There is nothing wrong with planned overtraining followed by a solid deload period. Dont get me wrong sure you need to be aware of signs of overreaching (not sleeping, decreased appetite/libido/energie lvl's etc) but it's only overtraining when a person meets those several of those criterea for a longer period of time i.e. military personel after (Im dutch so this might be different were you live) basic training/bootcamp etc.

I remember reading about a study the military did trying to put soldiers into "starvation mode" where they overworked them and underfed them and it's basically impossible to do.  Like, you have to actually be starving to go into starvation mode.

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Andrew Graham

Erm...Speaking as a sport therapist and S&C coach.....You said you only eat raw and organic food!?...no wonder you ain't seeing gains!! Have a proper cooked dinner and give your body something to chow down on. :)

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