Dogma in sports training

[Adrien Godet]

As many of you know, almost every sports and physical endavour have their own dogmas that seem to live in isolation of the rest of the world...

 

Of every sports community I have been involved in, Gymnastic Bodies is clearly for me the most thought out and sound approach I have come to know, and I adapted my training philosophy for other sports with great success thanks to Coach Sommer.

 

So out of curiosity, would you guys care to share some of the more interesting / perplexing / weird dogmas that you have encountered?

One of my favorite example is in climbing, where even members of this forum who are exposed to Coach's philosophy (preparation, progression, perfection...) still advise other climbers to just "climb more". As if somebody was asking how to do an iron cross and was told on this forum to just "spend more time doing iron crosses".

[Mikkel Ravn]

Horseback riding: "You've gotta fall of a hundred times before you're a good rider". Uhm, isn't falling off a sign of being incompetent? How would that make me better?

[Chris Aldersley]

Horseback riding: "You've gotta fall of a hundred times before you're a good rider". Uhm, isn't falling off a sign of being incompetent? How would that make me better?

You learn from your mistakes. Falling off shows you're pushing your skillset to its limits, maybe trying a new move/challenging horse. It then requires learning by problem solving which leads to higher performance.

[Mikkel Ravn]

I'm so not ready for that kind of constructive thinking on Saturday morning, Art. Please don't burst my misanthropic pre-coffee bubble, way too early for that >

[Chris Aldersley]

Haha sorry mate I'm in academic mode with exams coming up.

 

Here have a cool gif to start your day

 

[Briac Roquet]

Most martial arts instructors will have you perform endless reps of generally useless exercises (by that, I mean push-ups, sit-ups, etc.) as a 'warm-up'. Nice way to practice techniques with muscular fatigue. Too bad there's such a thing called as muscle memory.
Tehn, each martial art/sport has its specifics, e.g. bad coaches in Thai boxing that have you destroy your shins rather than actually make them more resilient progressively.

[Martin Majer]

 

One of my favorite example is in climbing, where even members of this forum who are exposed to Coach's philosophy (preparation, progression, perfection...) still advise other climbers to just "climb more". As if somebody was asking how to do an iron cross and was told on this forum to just "spend more time doing iron crosses".

And what is wrong with that? You want to be better climber, you have to climb more. Of course some strength training and training for grip strength is beneficial, but you can't learn the technique by another way than climbing.

 

Same applies to another sports (especially martial arts) - if you want to get better at something that is based mostly on technique, you have to do it more often. 

 

I read this somewhere:"Don’t practice until you get it right. Practice until you can’t get it wrong." Conditioning, strength training, etc. surely help, but if you don't know proper technique, it is basically useless. 

[adrienl]

I think the problem with these quotes (like basically everything on the internet) is a lack of context

You learn from your mistakes. Falling off shows you're pushing your skillset to its limits, maybe trying a new move/challenging horse. It then requires learning by problem solving which leads to higher performance.

Yes but how often should one fall? As a counter example when I recently learned snowboarding my most successful periods for learning were when I strung multiple periods of nearly falling together but kept going. The instance I fell though I lost all my momentum (both figuratively and literally) 

 

And what is wrong with that? You want to be better climber, you have to climb more. Of course some strength training and training for grip strength is beneficial, but you can't learn the technique by another way than climbing.

 

Same applies to another sports (especially martial arts) - if you want to get better at something that is based mostly on technique, you have to do it more often. 

 

I read this somewhere:"Don’t practice until you get it right. Practice until you can’t get it wrong." Conditioning, strength training, etc. surely help, but if you don't know proper technique, it is basically useless. 

I think the question we should be asking when we say climb more is "is this person ready to climb more". If we look at runners the level of injuries is horrendous because someone told them to run more with no regard to their physical preparation. Coach had a good post on this regarding how physical preparation  should occur before one learns the skills that interests them. I think this is the most important lesson I am taking from the GB approach. 

[Philip Chubb]

That if you haven't broken a massive sweat and aren't crawling out of the gym minus one spleen, you didn't work hard enough.

Or sport specific training is constantly needed.

Ab training...

[Joshua Naterman]

I personally believe, with all my heart, that if your approach is not grounded in developing the machine (your body) into something that can safely withstand repeated attempts at the skills you want to perform, and not attempting those skills until the machine is prepared, then you are basically operating off of dogma instead of a lucid approach, and will encounter unnecessary difficulties.

 

Sometimes dogma is perpetuated because the dogma does produce good athletes, but what is missed is the fact that there is unnecessary suffering and/or guesswork that you run into along the way by not taking a more "scientific" approach.

 

By scientific, I mean constantly looking for the fundamentals that form the foundation of WHY an athlete is capable of performing certain skills, including coordination at multiple levels, mechanical properties of tissues involved, and how certain drills actually prepare an athlete for the skill they are learning. Not just "this is what we do, or this is why we say we do it" but what is ACTUALLY happening. This requires a patient, inquiring mind that is not afraid to fly in the face of what currently is.

 

There are not many who take that approach, but those who do tend to see superior results.

[Connor Davies]

Lift heavy things really fast until you puke.

 

Gotta love crossfit.

[Douglas Wadle]

 

I think the question we should be asking when we say climb more is "is this person ready to climb more". If we look at runners the level of injuries is horrendous because someone told them to run more with no regard to their physical preparation. Coach had a good post on this regarding how physical preparation  should occur before one learns the skills that interests them. I think this is the most important lesson I am taking from the GB approach. 

 

 

Now that hit the nail on the head.   You cannot be elite or highly advanced in any skill area without using the principle of specificity. However, you cannot move to that "progression" until you are physically prepared for it (read: foundation).  Runners who try to run 80 miles a week are going to get injured the same as gymnasts who train IC too early.  They have not done their foundation work yet.  

 

Crossfit and some other exercise regimens claim you don't need to put a lot of time in running. They are correct if you just want to be in overall shape and complete a race.  However, if you want to run (or whatever sport you choose) with the best, you need to put in a lot of time and specificity after you have worked up to that with foundation work.  I think at the top levels of most sports they have not really held on to some of these misinformed old wives tails.  Maybe at lower levels like you'd see at the community level.  For instance you see a lot of running coaches pushing speedwork at the beginning of the season, especially in high school sports.  At the elite level you'd never see a coach ramping up speed work until the base was laid.

 

Good topic to raise some interesting ideas. 

[Philip Chubb]

That running is neccessary for cardio. Or that distance work is needed as well.

[Douglas Wadle]

Depends what you're training for. If you're training for a marathon you need distance and time on the feet. If you're training for a 5k there's going to be a lot more speed work and less easy distance. If you just want to be aerobically in shape then any cross training, HIIT, or running will be beneficial. That's the specificity principle I was talking about. Not necessary to be fit, but necessary if you want to optimize performance in any athletic endeavor.

[C.MARIVS]

Lift heavy things really fast until you puke.

 

Gotta love crossfit.

 

Talking about CF, ... http://imgur.com/51CVOfN

[Jono]

It is pointless to argue about this. Different approaches are better for different things. To get better at climbing, "you need to climb more" is good advice imo. To learn an iron cross, "you need to keep trying an iron cross more" is bad advice for a multitude of reasons. To be better at chess, "you need to play chess more" etc.

[Philip Chubb]

Depends what you're training for. If you're training for a marathon you need distance and time on the feet. If you're training for a 5k there's going to be a lot more speed work and less easy distance. If you just want to be aerobically in shape then any cross training, HIIT, or running will be beneficial. That's the specificity principle I was talking about. Not necessary to be fit, but necessary if you want to optimize performance in any athletic endeavor.

I wasn't talking about marathons but even that may only be somewhat true.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) misinformed old wives tails  (...)

 

Never, never, NEVER hold on to one of those "tails".........

But if you do, don't let go!

 

[Mark Collins]

When I was younger our football coach would deliberately leave the football at home. We would warm up with 20 laps of the oval and run for a total of 90 minutes. Real smart training for 11-12 year olds.

[Connor Davies]

 

Lift heavy things really fast until you puke.

 

Gotta love crossfit.

 

Talking about CF, ... http://imgur.com/51CVOfN

 

wat

[Mikkel Ravn]

Lol, kipping, weighted, assisted butterfly pullups. I'm sure it serves a purpose that has something to do with intense intensity and massive work capacity. And of course the ubiquitous VO2max.

[Mark Collins]

That's bad and stupid. Nearly as bad as what a local Crossfit did to one of my wife's friends. She couldn't do pull ups so the instructor put her in a band. As she still couldn't do them he pulled her down so the elastic shot her up! She could barely move her arms all week. This is why I travel 15 minutes away once a week to do Crossfit with real coaches who focus on technique.

[Chris Aldersley]

Resisted Assisted Exercises - Paradoxical training

[Keilani Gutierrez]

hmm...hop barspins were totally a skill thing for me at first. just had to learn how to do somewhat quality bunnyhops and then just let the bars fly. the part that made them difficult to me was when I snapped my right index finger on a tuck no hander....after that one injury, no handed tricks were a real challenge for me mentally. I really had to work "hard" of getting over this paralyzing fear of breaking fingers or breaking my teeth from missing my bars.

where as, tailwhips were a total mental game since the beginning, I had to learn footjam whils until I really started feeling comfortable throwing whips but i never got them passed doing them to flat. never had the courage to do a legit air on a quarterpipe, instead of just hucking it and landing flat.

somethin that also was playing with my mind since the beginning was airing a spine as high as i could. I saw Steve McCan air the Outdoor Mini at woodward east easily like 8ft out. he did absolutely -nothing- besides pump the tranny and blast off, i went slack jawed when i saw it happen. My buddy Axel was like "what in the hell was that for?" it was needlessly, ridiculously high.

I think the dogma that i held onto for the longest was that the deciding factor between doing tricks and abandoning ship was just how I felt about them. tailwhips became a world easier once I started doing dynamic leg lifts.

[Joshua Naterman]

When I was younger our football coach would deliberately leave the football at home. We would warm up with 20 laps of the oval and run for a total of 90 minutes. Real smart training for 11-12 year olds.

Perfect way to injure kids.