Beginning F1 - Suggestions and more

Dear forum,

as I wrote in the main forum, I started F1. To begin, I attempted mastery of the elements in my first workout. This means:

FL/PE1 and Im

sPL/PE1 and Im

HBP/PE1 and Im

RC/PE1 and Im

I could achieve mastery at all of them, besides the bent hollow body hold where I did only 3 sets because I was almost cramping In addition, mobility drills are excellent and I need to work a bit more on the swivel, I did not use a perfect form. The rest was feasible, but not for free. Interesting elements!

Now, how do you recommend to proceed? Can I simply step back to week 9 for FL/PE1 and keep the rest at week 12 so that for 4 weeks I will always do 5x15 on the elements other than FL/PE1? I'd like to give myself some time to get use to the intensity and I think this should be a good idea. Correct me if I am wrong.

Furthermore, can I perform a little bit more reps in the mobility drills? I'd need to really work hard on my mobility. I will then let you know about the other elements and I will use this chance to discuss a little bit of complementary work.

Thanks a lot,

Federico

Great that you came around :-)

So to answer your questions. You do not have to keep the PE's you mastered. Next workout try mastery for PE2, if you master them try PE3 and so forth. Eventually you will find where you have to be. For example:

FL: PE1

SL: PE2

RC:PE4

HBP: PE3

When you get here then you decide which weeks to be at on them. Like you say FL you start week 9, then lets say you struggled with HBP PE3 you start that at week 5, but were crushed by SL PE2 and have to start that on week 1.

What is important is that you keep the DELOAD weeks for ALL ELEMENTS synced.

Good luck :-)

OK, and for me I assume is particularly important that not mastering the mobility element is as bad, if not worse, than not mastering the PE element, correct? In that case, like for the swivel, should I repeat my week 12 attempt?

That is correct. Both must be mastered before you progress.

I would back up to week 9 on that specific element and work up the ability on the mobility while you move to week 1 (or 5 or 9, depending on your level) on the next progression for your other exercises. 

Yes, you must master the iM also. Mastery comes in pair always. Don't move on if you struggle with the iM.

You can choose to repeat the week 11 (12 is deload, there is a typo there, Mastery is week 11) or do weeks 9-11 focusing on the iM.

Up to you.

OK, thanks. I then move back to week 9 for that element and proceed for the others. When I will have the chance, I will record my form and post a movie for evaluation. is that OK with you?

Post away. That's what the forum is for

OK!

Another quick question. My first day of a new element will be trying to master it. Say I fail on set 1, how should one then proceed? Should you try to go for a set with the #reps/time required for week9, and if failed for week5, and if failed for week1? This is not entirely clear to me.

Finally, one question regarding the warmup. After having mastered an element, one is allowed to introduce max 3 of them in the warmup, with a certain number of reps. Is this going to happen in my general WU, before starting the F1 work for the day, or is the simpler element just performed before the element of the day?

Thanks a lot,

Federico

Not sure I follow you?

Are you asking what to do if you fail the first set on a mastery test? Like say you try 5 x PPP and only get 4 the first set?

Or is it how to decide which week to start at?

The rule of thumb is:

If you are close to mastery, but didn't quite make it --> week 9

If you did a good job, but hey, too much for now --> week 5

If your test set would win first prize at american funniest home videos --> week 1

WU is generally recommended as being the mastered exercises and done before the element trained. Reps are suggested at 21/15/9.

You decide basically how you go about. Remember it's just warm up. Example, lets say you train HBP at PE3, you could do 15 reps at PE1 then 9 reps at PE2. Experiment and see.

Thanks Christian, my question was on how to go about a new element, once you master the previous one. If you just attempt mastery for the new element and fail right away in the first set, there should be a way to avoid wasting the session.

For example, if week 11 (mastery) is 5x15, and you attempt 15 reps in set 1 getting only 12, maybe you can try then to perform 3 sets of 9 reps in the next sets, as in week 9 you will be asked to work with sets of 9. If you can get it, then you know you can start from week 9. If not, then you can try the recommended reps for week 5, and so on. 

Thanks for the hints on the WU. For tempo elements, does 21 correspond to 21 seconds? I am thinking about doing an extra session in which I keep some of the elements I mastered to get use to the intensity and have the chance to repeat the mobility elements. Is there a problem in doing a little bit more on the mobility elements than recommended? My concern is mostly about that, I am improving tremendously and over the last 3-4 months I can really feel it also during my daily activities, but I am not yet at a decent level, for my standards. 

When you test out on a new element and fail the mastery standard already in the first set, you should start the new element at week 1. Dont think of it as lost time because it looks like you are doing little work, but working the element at low volume with perfect form really ingrains the correct movement pattern and muscular activation and you will progress faster than if you keep repeating a minicycle too high for your current level with form breaks in between.

As for warming up with timed elements, i remember the recommendation to do one mastery set of the element, for example 1x60s bHBH.

Very clear (and reasonable). Thanks a lot for your help!

Keep us posted on your progress :-)

[important parts are in boldface]

OK, did my second session. Attempted mastery in the 3 elements, failed in all them.

I did the arch body hold (SL/PE1), I can do something close to week 9 (I did 42s, 42s, 33s, 30s). It means I will start from week 5. I arched as much as possible, but I don't reach as much as the guy in the video. Particularly, my shoulders are very stiff and do not reach my ears.

In the standing hip circle I did better than expected but I am not fluid. It means I will have the time to practice.

Then, I did the tuck up (MN/PE1). I did 15,15,10,10 reps. Some reps better than others, first time I do this and sometimes I do not look fluid. Attempted to reach as close as my chest as possible. Planning to start from week 9 here. The windmill is a different story. I tried to do it with 7kg DB and 5kg DB. I have approximately 1/2 of the ROM of the sample movie, and I can not rotate the DB 360 degrees. However, I managed to keep it right above my shoulder, with both legs straight. Hence, I think I could work on it. Basically, I have to reach a position where my obliques are parallel to the floor, if not lower. 

The deck squat (SLS/PE1) is the most disappointing. I could do many reps and I can continue for a while, but only few without having to jump to keep my balance or moving on a side, et simili. It is zero demanding in terms of strength. Rather, it highlights that whenever there is something more than strength involved I really suck. I did 4 sets, with 6-7 good reps out of I guess 20/25 of them. The skiers felt kind of wierd, but I tried to do my best.

After the WO, as I am not allowed to take videos during the workout (and although my abs were tired), I just recorded a couple of elements at home for evaluation. Here you can see some seconds of SL/PE1, of MN/PE1 and of SLS/PE1>Im. Please let me know what do you think and if you see major mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5TdcS6qROU&feature=youtu.be

I completed the WO with band GMs using a green band, 3x10 and some isokinetic leg extension, plus a full static stretching routine as always.

Now that I performed all PE1 elements, I can say that I have a quite substantial unbalance between strength and mobility/coordination. A person who could lift more than 200kg squat IPF in the -75, can not suck at a deck squat, seriously. My feeling is that although I lost a lot of PLing gained strength and body mass over the last 2 years (when I mostly did aerobic sports), I am still at a decent level and I should complement a bit the work in F1 to keep up with it. For example, pull ups are not included in the program and I will introduce them, in addition with some leg training (unfortunately, I cannot squat or DL right now).

Finally, a note. As discussed in the first post here:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/12633-program-evaluation-suggestions-how-to-make-workouts-shorter/

I had a testis surgery in 2004 (nothing major, but not standard) and recently some inflammation. This led me to develop some psychosomatic fear of, e.g. working with closed feet or knees that touch each other., over the last years. I was and am working on it actively, as this affected also the way I sit, walk, etc. For me, it will be the greatest mastery to get rid of it while doing F1

Thanks!

i just give you a few notes on your evaluation video:

1) ABH:

- feet are not together

- you have to work on your rom (both shoulders and hip flexors are to tight)

2) tuck ups:

- seems like you use momentum to start the movement

- work on your timing (compare with the athlete in the video

3) skiers:

- keep your chest up (this will intensify the movement alot)

Thanks.

 

 

you have to work on your rom (both shoulders and hip flexors are to tight

Any suggestion?

On the tuck ups, I don't think I am using a momentum, I am resting fully extended before any rep. For the timing, you mean I should try to be more fluid?

For the skiers, thanks!

A general comment. I had a look at the entire SLS progression. Why is that the main focus is on quad dominant exercises with very often movements in which knees move even in front of feet (and/or, feet are lifted up?).

federicoC said:

On the tuck ups, I don't think I am using a momentum, I am resting fully extended before any rep. For the timing, you mean I should try to be more fluid?

...

A general comment. I had a look at the entire SLS progression. Why is that the main focus is on quad dominant exercises with very often movements in which knees move even in front of feet (and/or, feet are lifted up?).

For the Tuck Ups, try leading the movement more with your core (initiating from a posterior pelvic tilt) and less with your arms.

My guess for the SLS movements ... gymnastics requires the ability to handle deviation on landings this puts a lot of stress on tendons and ligaments. Thus it needs to be trained. Many of the earlier progressions are about building the capacity to remain injury free later on and less about building strength right out of the gate - of course, many will have that as a by product of shoring up any weak links.

- Chris

federicoC said:

Thanks.

 

 

Any suggestion?

On the tuck ups, I don't think I am using a momentum, I am resting fully extended before any rep. For the timing, you mean I should try to be more fluid?

For the skiers, thanks!

 

A general comment. I had a look at the entire SLS progression. Why is that the main focus is on quad dominant exercises with very often movements in which knees move even in front of feet (and/or, feet are lifted up?).

1) ABH suggestions: read the huge abh thread. you'll gather alot of good information.

2) sry my bad. momentum was the wrong word. you start your movement with an explosive tension of your abs. try without it's harder that way.

federicoC said:

Thanks.

Any suggestion?

On the tuck ups, I don't think I am using a momentum, I am resting fully extended before any rep. For the timing, you mean I should try to be more fluid?

For the skiers, thanks!

A general comment. I had a look at the entire SLS progression. Why is that the main focus is on quad dominant exercises with very often movements in which knees move even in front of feet (and/or, feet are lifted up?).

The SLS movements are designed to build the requisite strength to be able to master a Single Leg Squat/Pistol squat and move on to more challenging variations. If you've ever done any real SLS's/Pistols you'd realize that they require the quads to be strong, and a full Range Of Motion (ROM) which means that the knee will naturally track forwards (depending on the individuals limb/lever lengths this may mean they wind up in front of the toes).

The whole "the knee should never track forwards beyond the toes" is a training myth (and one of my personal pet peeves) that has no basis in either scientific literature or anecdotal evidence. The sooner you realize it's a myth and stop worrying about it the better.

Finally, although the SLS progressions do build the quads, if your hips are functioning correctly they should also build your hamstrings and Glutes as well.

Thanks for your hints. Later I will post some feedback from today's WO for discussion/evaluation. Not sure it is a training myth, but I have scientific evidence to prove the opposite. Squat, at least in PLing (or for performance), is a hamstring dominant movement and I thought SLS should follow the same. Thanks for your input.

federicoC said:

Thanks for your hints. Later I will post some feedback from today's WO for discussion/evaluation. Not sure it is a training myth, but I have scientific evidence to prove the opposite. Squat, at least in PLing (or for performance), is a hamstring dominant movement and I thought SLS should follow the same. Thanks for your input.

Powerlifting often utilizes a very hip hinge dominant squatting motion, thus the Hamstrings are heavily recruited. Powerlifting is all about maximizing leverage and minimizing ROM to allow one to move the most possible weight from point A to Point B though.

Contrast that with an Olympic Lifting squat (which utilizes much more ROM) where the torso is kept very upright, the bar is placed higher on the traps, and a (generally) narrower stance is used and you have a more quad dominant squatting pattern (although personally, I always felt this movement best balanced out the stresses between the quads and posterior chain).

SLS/Pistols are much closer to the Olympic Squatting pattern than to the powerlifting squatting pattern.

Thanks Keegan Y, indeed while watching videos of people performing pistols, I myself realized this. However, what you write about PLing often depends on the school. Many russian lifters have a more (notice the relative term) quad dominant technique than US lifters. In any case, I thought the correct form for a pistol is with the foot entirely touching the ground.

A little report about today's WO to get some additional info, if possible. Again, boldface for important parts.

I did

FL/PE1 (bent hollow body hold), week 9. I could manage 4x48s, it's a tough one. In one set I tried to raise my upperbody further, while keeping my lower back pushing down on the floor. The result is that I was hollowing more than the guy in the video and I was wondering whether this is beneficial or whether I should avoid it and lift my shoulders/traps only.

FL/PE1>Im (cat cow), I made a video (I am currently on my way to convince the owner to let me make videos) and I felt OK. What do you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_u_Sfs0pcI&feature=youtu.be

sPL/PE1 (scapular shrug). I repeated mastery, as I wanted to cross validate what I did. I feel good, I can pinch my scapulae and protract it. How should the rest of the body be? I try to keep it straight, neither hollowing nor arching. Let me know, next time I make a video if I may.

sPL/PE1>Im (swivel hips). I watch the sample video several times. Now I can touch with one leg (the external) and I was quite surprised. I did 10, not 5 reps per set. However, I am far from the floor with my internal one. I can reach it if I really force, but then I feel pain in my hip cap (hope it's the right term). I read the topic here in the forum, it seems it is troubling lots of people. I would say mastery of sPL/PE1 is hampered by this, hence I will keep it over the next week as well (and make a movie). Meanwhile, keep going with stretching.

HBP/PE1 (incline pushup). Mastered (again), I even increased the TUT, all fine. 

HBP/PE1>Im (german arm swing), also feels great. Can I steal it an put in my warmup routine? I did 5x15 on PE1 and 15r (not 10) of the mobility drill, one after another with no rest. Is it OK, right? (I wanted to increase my mobility volume a bit).

RC/PE1 (hinge row). Mastered. This time I really lift my butt, felt tough (and felt the difference). During the last set I was close to cry. However, my forearms and lats are stronger than the rest of my body. Just need some time to get used to the volume.

RC/PE1>Im (upright lat lean). This is a GREAT lat deep stretching exercise. I enjoyed it and really felt great doing it (although putting it right after the hinge row makes the entire 10' of training for this part quite challenging).

Complemented the work with some set of calf raise, isokinetic leg ext and static stretching routine.

Thanks to everyone for having the time to share your opinion and experience. I do really enjoy being here now.

In regards to how much to hollow on FL PE1, I would try doing some reps of FL PE2 (BHBR). Those should let you know if you are hollow enough in your holds (the rocks should be smooth if you are).

Yes, you are correct that the proper form for pistols is with the foot flat/heel down

OK, I'll record it next time with different angles. I am sure I can hollow a lot, I just want to ensure I am not doing it too much.

federicoC said:

 

FL/PE1>Im (cat cow), I made a video (I am currently on my way to convince the owner to let me make videos) and I felt OK. What do you say?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_u_Sfs0pcI&feature=youtu.be

 

FL/PE1>iM - The hollowing should not be limited to the upper back only.  Also almost no arch is occured during the bottom of the movement.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer