Stalled on handstand progress--will this work?

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

I have been doing body weight exercises for about 15 months with some breaks. I had to take two breaks of about 2 months each due to first a wrist injury, and several months later a torn chest muscle. Anyways, I have been working out without interruption for 3-4 monthhs now. I do handstands each week, and can when rested do a 90 second static hold. I have been able to do that length of hold for quite a while but can not seem to get any better. I am also doing partial HS push ups with my back to the wall (as of several month ago I was able to go with my head to the floor but lost that ability after an injury induced break). I know there seems to be a preference for back away from the wall here, but I feel more comfortable with the former, and am just doing this for fitness. Admitedly my HS voume has been low--like about 6-8 mins./ wee. As seen below correcting that will be part of my proposed solution.

 

I shall begin with a bit of an aside to explain my thoughts on improving my HS strength: I also do pull ups and was experiencing the same problem--a plateau at about 8-9 pullups. So I did a google seach and came up with a program found here:

http://physicalliving.com/how-to-rapidly-increase-your-pullup-numbers-in-3-months-or-less/

 

 

I have been doing this program for about 2 weeks now--on day 11 I was able to do 12 pull ups with good strict form--no partials.   And I felt like I could have done a couple more, but you are not supposed to push yourself during the first month. So, this program is working for me so far. Basically it consists of doing lots of volume on a daily basis (1--2 days off/week) at no more than 60% of max reps in any given set.  I started at 36 pull ups on day one, and am now up to 60 pull ups a day, and will hit around 100/day by the end of the first month. In month two and three intensity is ramped up with pyramids, etc., but done only twice weeekly. 

 

BTW, here is an excellent video by the same trainer on pull up technique which helped a lot--I feel half of my gains came from improvements in my form.

 

So, the other day I wondered if the same thing might help with handstands, and other basic body weight movements like push up, and dip variations as well. So my plan is as follows: After I have completed month one of the pullup program, and am only doing pull ups twice a week I will start doing HS holds daily at a max of 60% of my maximum holt time of 90 secs--but generally less like maybe 30 secs or so, at least initially. As with the pull up program I will increase volume daily (beginning with around 3 minutes/day and increasing to maybe 10 mins. /day by the end of month one), and take a couple days a week off. Once I have finished month one, if the results are showing, I will move on to a similar approach for HS as with the pull ups done in month two. At the same time I might start with another body weight movement--either dips or pushups and start doing the month one approach for that. My idea is to adapt this program for HS, pushups, and dips variations (perhaps dictated by stagnating progress in that movement) beginning the month one approach for each in a staggered fashion as described above so that I am not doing the daily high volume approach for more than one exercise at a time.  At the same time I will be continuing with my regular 3 workouts/week excluding whichever exercise I am doing high daily volume on at the time. I would like to have some input on this approach. My goals are for general fitness, with an emphasis on increasing functional strength rather than mass gains. In my current workouts I am also doing some staic holds as follows: v-sit, and  front lever progression (can do a front lever tuck with quads at 90 degrees to torso easily) and always warm up with the six basic static holds for 60 secs i.e. plank, reverse plank, etc. I plan to add other isometric type exercises over time.

One last thing--I do own some weights and a bench, but would probably prefer to move over to body weight work exclusively. My house is small, and I don't have much room for the weight gear at this point. So I am considering to sell my weights and do just bodyweight exercises. Any downside to that? If I did sell that stuff my remaining set up would be as follows: Rings, Pull up bar, stall bars, and a dip station. I would also consider investing in a weight vest at some point. Sorry for such a lengthy post, and thanks for any help in advance.

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** One other thing I wonder about a bit--11 years ago I suffered a 3rd degree ac shoulder separation. It does not bother me almost at all now--I do have the tell tale lump on my left shooulder. I weigh 155 lbs. and as of last effort was able to lift 120 lbs. overhead in military press--this after doing no weights for more than a year. Such loads, and HS, push ups and dips do not cuase pain, but I wonder if the injury could be hampering my progress?

[Afiya Zia]

How is the pull-up program? Is there any pain or is it comfortable at the prescribed volume?

I think HS at that volume could wreck your wrists. Maybe doing them stomach-to-wall could help?

I wouldn't sell the weights. You will probably need them for lower body work, and if you ever make the requirements for an Iron Cross or a Maltese, then the weights could be useful to you.

If you feel the injury is hampering progress, then have it checked out. But if it has healed then that may not be the case.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

How is the pull-up program? Is there any pain or is it comfortable at the prescribed volume?

I think HS at that volume could wreck your wrists. Maybe doing them stomach-to-wall could help?

I wouldn't sell the weights. You will probably need them for lower body work, and if you ever make the requirements for an Iron Cross or a Maltese, then the weights could be useful to you.

If you feel the injury is hampering progress, then have it checked out. But if it has healed then that may not be the case.

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Thanks for the reply. The pull up program is going very well. Prior to trying it I was stuck at about 8 good pull ups. I had tried one other approach I had found here, but was still not progressing. After two weeks or so I can now do 12 pull ups with good clean form, and that was not a max effort. I am sure I could do at least 1-2  more. I am hopeful that by the end of the first month I will be able to do 15 pull ups.

As far as pain goes--no, I am not having any pain. This is also a change as pull ups were causing me tendon and forearm pain before. A couple of things I would mention--be sure to watch that vid I posted and make any corrections in your technique that are needed. Upon correcting my technique the biggest difference I noticed was a far greater ability to activate my lats which gave me more power. Also, I think changes I made in hand and finger placement helped a lot to stop the pain I was getting.

In terms of the volume--I started with 36 pull ups on day one done over several hours. I will do 66 pull ups today, and now usually do them  over 1-1 1/2 hours. The movement seems to be becoming easier day by day although after 6-7 days without a break I start to feel the fatigue a bit. This also depends on what other activities I have been doing. So far the result has been better than anything else I tried, and that is why I thought about applying it to other exercises as well.

I did start doing it for HS as well, and did 4 days in a row starting with 180 secs total in 30 second sets up to 240 secs on day four. I am contemplating whether or not to continue with HS at the same tine as daily pull ups because it adds a lot of volume to my work load. I am thinking it might be better to begin the daily HS after month one of the pull ups is finished and I am only doing pull ups twice a week. Mainly I am concerned to avoid burn out.

It actually was from HS work that I injured my wrist. That took two months to heal after which I continued with HS wearing a wrist support called 'Tiger Paws'. I started doing those 30 sec HS sets without the Tiger Paws for the first time since the injury without ill effect.

Re the wights--I have not decided. Because $$ are tight I thought I could use the money a sale would gain. For now I will just store them in my out building as I have too much stuff in my 865 sq. foot home. My bedroom/workout room is only 165 sq. feet. But I can see that I might regret it down the line maybe.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

A couple of things I will add--after 4-5 five days of the daily pull ups program I did notice muscle soreness in my deltoid muscles. I could tell it was just DOMS and not injury. After around 5 days I took a day or two off, and then continued. At that point I started doing some shoulder stretches each day before starting the pull ups. This helped to alleviate existing soreness almost at once, and has helped to diminish that from then on. I find I always feel a bit weaker on the first set or two but after that the movement feels fairly easy for at least the first 7-8 or so pull ups. I am currently on day 16--he does advise taking a day or two a week off so a month might only be 22 or a bit more of actual work days. I might do a full 30 work days before moving on to month two--perhaps I will do a test when I have done a full 22--24 work days and decide then depending on if I have reached my goal of 15 pull ups. I will post back with how it goes. I guess this has all gotten a bit off topic from my original question, but just wanted to respond fully to Aadils' questions(s).

[Afiya Zia]

Hmmm, if I had to come up with some strategy to build up HS time (besides H1 obviously), it would go like this:

1: Freestanding HS (if you don't have a freestanding handstand, then do them on the wall with one foot off the wall, or you could "bounce" on and off the wall to build freestanding strength)

2: Wall HS: obviously if you can't do one without a wall, then this is step 1. Keep your hollow body position handy, and I would advise you to do them stomach-to-wall, as this reinforces proper position.

3: Low HS: I don't know the real name for this; I saw it in Coach Carl Paoli's "Handstand Practice and Spotting" video on YouTube. Do this for as long as it's comfortable.

I would start this on a twice-a-week schedule, working at low volume that could be increased by up to 5s a week. Once a week I would do HeSPu and HSPu progressions, either on a wall or free, starting with limited

ROM and slow negatives.

Edit: after a while, when 2*week is easy, go up to three*week. These aren't including your pushup variation sessions. I hope someone could tell me if this is a solid plan or not (Slizz?)

I only asked about the Pull-Up program because I was interested by it hehe

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

When I do HS against the wall I am trying to get very close to free standing. I may have just one foot on the wall and then try to remove it a few times during a hold. I had the idea of increasing beyond my max 90 secs. hold as I saw a post on GB months ago put up by coach Somer that advised aiming for a 3 minute hold to get proper strength benefits. I am still tempted to try the every day approach with multiple short holds, but will take your caution into consideration. Certainly I do not want to injure my wrist again.

I definitely want to get a free standing HS at some point--and then freestanding HSPU as well. I am struggling with the press movement, but had forgot about doing negatives which I had done months ago. I will definitely start those again--as mentioned I was able to do a PU with my head to the floor previously but cannot PU from quite that low now. Perhaps the negatives would help with that.

I would really like to master the straddle press to HS move eventually and then perhaps more advanced presses from there. Thanks for your suggestions. Oh, and I did find what someone was calling a low HS on YT. It looked kind of like a frog stand without having your knees on your elbows--does that sound right? Since I started doing frog stands a couple weeks ago I could eventually try the low HS as well.

[Afiya Zia]

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=Dd09gcXCXc8

That's the low HS I was talking about, I think you may have misinterpreted it as a Headstand. I think before trying any press to HS, you should have a free HS. How can you press into a hold you don't have? O.o

How proficient are you with Coach's wrist series? I would never do Handstand work without warming up my wrists and shoulders. First get your Handstand and your Headstand, then Headatand Pushups, then Handstand Pushups, then presses and ring work.

I think you should look at H1, honestly. I don't have it yet, but I hope to soon I understand that the wrist prep is golden and the promise of a 2 min free Handstand is fantastic for someone like me (4s Handstand )

If you want 3m time under tension, then just aim for it in what I have prescribed for you. Ultimatley, if you save up for it, H1 will provide the greatest benefits.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

I agree with you on the order of things. I would certainly try to get a decent freestanding HS before I moved on to presses because of course the ability to balance in an unsupported HS is necessary for that. I have not done the wrist series at all--I am really doing these exercises for strength increase, but have no plans of becoming a gymnast. It's just that body weight exercises appeal to me for their simplicity, and of course are very effective as well.  But, I will check that out, as wrist strength is probably pretty important for any one planning to do HS work. HS saappeals to me from two angles--one, it is very effective BW exercise for shoulders, and two--some of the moves like presses for instance just look really cool when executed well. Even if I don't master such moves I will no doubt benefit from the effort.

 

I have not been doing headstand work at all--I wonder if that would help? I have just been doing HS holds against the wall, HS pushups (partials), and now adding negatives again as well. As mentioned, several months back I could do a HSPU all the way to the floor, but after a couple of injury related lay offs lost the strength to do that. So I am trying to get back to that place again and beyond i.e. HSPU using parallettes for example. 

Not really sure what H1 is--perhaps you could explain, or refer me to where to find that.

 

BTW, I did 14 pullups yesterday (max effort) with good form--no partials. So I am improving. Today I did 102 pullups (in multiple sets of course--ha ha). I started on day one with 36. One of the most interesting things about this is that I no longer have any pain whatsoever from doing even that much volume on a daily basis. Before starting this program I had significant pain at times in my elbows from doing less than 30 pull ups twice a week. I attribute the change to improvement in technique coupled with my body adapting to the forces involved. I have only 3 days left in month one of the program. I wanted to be able to do 15 by the end of month one so after 3 more days I will rest a bit and then give it a shot. I could only do 8 pullups max in one set when I started. In month two you do pullups twice a week instead of daily (at a more intense level)--so I am going to start doing  month one of the same program adapted for push ups when I start month two for pullups. Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

[Afiya Zia]

That's really great progress! Congrats!

H1 is a gymnasticbodies course which will prepare you with the necessary strength and mobility to do a 2 minute freestanding Handstand, completely pain-free. There are preparatory elements for your wrists as well. I recommend that you check it out. It's on the homepage.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

That's really great progress! Congrats!

H1 is a gymnasticbodies course which will prepare you with the necessary strength and mobility to do a 2 minute freestanding Handstand, completely pain-free. There are preparatory elements for your wrists as well. I recommend that you check it out. It's on the homepage.

Well, in my workout last night I changed things up a bit. Instead of a few long HS holds I did 10 x 20s with 60 sec rest between. I then did 3 sets of pike pushups done at 5 secs/rep x 8 reps. And finished with HSPU negatives against the wall--3 x 6 reps with 90 secs rest between. I have also started doing v-sit with hands on the floor instead of on my dip bars--did 6 x 15 secs in my workout. I will see how it goes, and implement some of your other suggestions as needed. Thanks for the heads up on H1--I found it on this site a few days ago. I cannot afford to pay for training info so will just continue progressing with what info I can find online.

I finished month 1 of the pullup program last Thursday, and after a four day period of no pull ups, I did a set of 15 reps yesterday, and came within an inch of a 16th rep--so that is good progress for my pulling strength. In the next month I will aim to reach a max set of 20 pull ups. I am also trying to train to do a muscle up--actually achieving that skill is a ways off yet. I started doing jumping MU on rings, but find in the negative phase lowering slowly is hard on my elbows, and arms in general. So I will look for some kind of progression to deal with that. Thanks for your help.