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Shia

Do hollowback press build the chest?

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Shia

So the general consensus is that it does infact stimulate your pecs?

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Joshua Slocum

So the general consensus is that it does infact stimulate your pecs?

Yes and no. 'Yes' in that it will stimulate your pecs. 'No' in that doing just hollow back presses isn't going to give you enough variety or intensity to build an impressive upper body physique. 

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Jon Douglas

Come to a seminar! They're awesome!

I'm doing my level best! Hopefully either Sept Arizona or Canberra Oct depending on how my weird and wayfaring life comes up :)

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Deins Drengers

 

T_____________T

 

Did I say something wrong?  :blink:

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Jon Douglas

Did I say something wrong? :blink:

No, I just haven't been to a seminar yet ^_^

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Deins Drengers

No, I just haven't been to a seminar yet ^_^

That makes the two of us then  :)

I want to go so badly !

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SuperMan

Nonsense.   :icon_rolleyes:

 

Daniel has made great strides, but he is not even remotely close to matching Allan's development yet.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Can I see his updated photos? From what I have seen in the F1 videos and pictures and from this site, Allan is not

that impressive as i imagined he would be. Especially the blonde stick guy with close to 3% bf who got almost only bones on him.

Maybe the photos didn't reflect him or maybe our standards of "impressive physique"

are somehow different.

And Dont jump on me, maybe I am wrong or maybe there is something else, but for example Joshua Naterman got

really impressive hands, the guy with the maltesse, And 1 of you students who posted a topic about

protraction in the planche lean, they are impressive.

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Joshua Naterman

Nonsense.   :icon_rolleyes:

 

Daniel has made great strides, but he is not even remotely close to matching Allan's development yet.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

He keeps changing, Coach. Looks considerably better than he did at the seminar. I am not exaggerating, he's becoming quite well developed. It's kind of crazy to watch. I don't quite know how it's all happening, my working hypothesis is that a) he is doing better at sticking to his nutrition and b) all that apparatus work makes a huge difference.

 

The biggest difference at this point is body fat, which Allan has less of, but they are starting to really look quite similar. Proportions and everything. It's bizarre.

 

As a moving athlete, there's a huge amount of difference. In terms of the physical appearance and muscle mass, there's not that much difference anymore.

 

Just my opinion, but there's a lot of us seeing him change out here. No offense intended, just sharing observations. It is nothing but a compliment to you for having a good training program.

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Joshua Naterman

Can I see his updated photos? From what I have seen in the F1 videos and pictures and from this site, Allan is not

that impressive as i imagined he would be. Especially the blonde stick guy with close to 3% bf who got almost only bones on him.

Maybe the photos didn't reflect him or maybe our standards of "impressive physique"

are somehow different.

And Dont jump on me, maybe I am wrong or maybe there is something else, but for example Joshua Naterman got

really impressive hands, the guy with the maltesse, And 1 of you students who posted a topic about

protraction in the planche lean, they are impressive.

These guys are pretty impressive in person, especially seeing how Allan is growing. Dillon, the one who was in the planche lean article, was two years older (when the pics were taken) than Allan is now, and was naturally strong. He's bigger now than he was then. You'll see Allan continue to grow in a similar way, I think.

 

Time makes a big difference... if you had seem Allan two years ago, you'd see a MASSIVE difference between then and now. He's starting to develop a lot more muscle mass and is pretty much as lean as ever.

 

 

Pictures rarely seem to do gymnasts justice. When you see them in person things are quite a bit different.

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Coach Sommer

Our standards for 'impressive physique' are indeed quite different.

 

To my mind, mass for the sake of mass is athletically pointless; as size alone is not an indication of athletic ability. 

 

However if pure mass is what you are in favor of, then you would be far better off pursuing bodybuilding rather than GST; that is their specialty.  Here at GB we specialize in functional muscle; muscle that is capable of creating world class movement.  If it can't perform, and perform at the highest level, what good is the mass?  Dillon, who's physique you admire most, is only the third strongest of the group.  Both Allan and Heath are significantly stronger than Dillon.  Interestingly their level of coordination and agility is also higher than Dillon's.

 

In addition, it is important to note that properly prepared, the GST generated physique also performs very capably outside of the realm of GST.  Something that does not apply in the reverse.  For example, when I brought an olympic lifting coach in to work with them, my older athletes all learned to jerk 1.5 times bodyweight in about 45 minutes.  With what I was assured at the time was terrible technique; just pure muscle.  The coach also wondered what they would be capable of accomplishing had we had more than that 45 min block to work with.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Jon Douglas

In addition, it is important to note that properly prepared, the GST generated physique also performs very capably outside of the realm of GST.  Something that does not apply in the reverse.  For example, when I brought an olympic lifting coach in to work with them, my older athletes all learned to jerk 1.5 times bodyweight in about 45 minutes.  With what I was assured at the time was terrible technique; just pure muscle.  The coach also wondered what they would be capable of accomplishing had we had more than that 45 min block to work with.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thats what really fascinates me. 'Smarter' muscles. Comparable if excellent hardware, but vastly superior software and drivers.

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Marios Roussos

He keeps changing, Coach. Looks considerably better than he did at the seminar. I am not exaggerating, he's becoming quite well developed. It's kind of crazy to watch. I don't quite know how it's all happening, my working hypothesis is that a) he is doing better at sticking to his nutrition and B) all that apparatus work makes a huge difference.

 

The biggest difference at this point is body fat, which Allan has less of, but they are starting to really look quite similar. Proportions and everything. It's bizarre.

 

As a moving athlete, there's a huge amount of difference. In terms of the physical appearance and muscle mass, there's not that much difference anymore.

 

Just my opinion, but there's a lot of us seeing him change out here. No offense intended, just sharing observations. It is nothing but a compliment to you for having a good training program.

Ok, well with that kind of endorsement, I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said that all of us now want to see 1) a picture, 2) a detailed description of Daniel's nutrition and recommended resources (is it all based on the Jaminets' perfect health diet?) and 3) a detailed description of his training schedule.

 

Consider this the start of a petition :)

 

M

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SuperMan

Our standards for 'impressive physique' are indeed quite different.

 

To my mind, mass for the sake of mass is athletically pointless; as size alone is not an indication of athletic ability. 

 

However if pure mass is what you are in favor of, then you would be far better off pursuing bodybuilding rather than GST; that is their specialty.  Here at GB we specialize in functional muscle; muscle that is capable of creating world class movement.  If it can't perform, and perform at the highest level, what good is the mass?  Dillon, who's physique you admire most, is only the third strongest of the group.  Both Allan and Heath are significantly stronger than Dillon.  Interestingly their level of coordination and agility is also higher than Dillon's.

 

In addition, it is important to note that properly prepared, the GST generated physique also performs very capably outside of the realm of GST.  Something that does not apply in the reverse.  For example, when I brought an olympic lifting coach in to work with them, my older athletes all learned to jerk 1.5 times bodyweight in about 45 minutes.  With what I was assured at the time was terrible technique; just pure muscle.  The coach also wondered what they would be capable of accomplishing had we had more than that 45 min block to work with.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I completely agree with you, gymnastics is not bodybuilding but physical appearance and functional body are two 

different things and I was talking about appearance and not function.

 

Btw I agree with -MR, I am interested to see Daniel's body too and to know what is this "apparatus work" you

guys are reffering to?

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Coach Sommer

The apparatus work being referred to is currently for GB seminar graduates only and may only be discussed in the private Graduate Studies forum.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Jon Douglas

The apparatus work being referred to is currently for GB seminar graduates only and may only be discussed in the private Graduate Studies forum.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I assumed this was skill work and training; is there specific apparatus work for GST coming up? :D :D

Or is this covered by the whole 'may only be discussed thing...'?

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Connor Davies

I took it to mean specific gymnastic training, like pommel horse, vault, rings sequences ect...

 

Am I wrong?  Is there a sequel to Foundation already in the works?  If so, can we have F3 and F4 first?

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Daniel Burnham

In Response to INA's question:

 

The truth of the matter is that the Foundation series is intended to be a nearly full program for a person just starting Gymnastic Strength Training™.  I saw nearly because it does not include several things that I would say make it complete which have been mentioned at the seminar including a stretching series, though it does currently encompass far more than most of the "routines" that I see elsewhere.  To make is specific to another sport is another matter altogether and requires a coach who is very familiar with the sport and knows what things will contribute.  The specificity of training has long been known to provide benefit.  

 

Personally I think the Foundation series, especially one and two, will contribute to pretty much every sport.  You are basically going from learning core support and how to produce more force through body shapes in Foundation One to using this body control for harder elements in the later series.  Pavel has been teaching this as well for years but marketed it as a secret of power or some other slightly buzzworded topic.  It also provides mobility and strengthening of support tissue in the body which is never a bad thing.

 

Foundation when conducted by an experienced coach can be included as additional training and provide a good amount of benefit because of the reasons above.  Most of the responses to the forum that discourage adding additional workouts to foundation are because people are not doing them in a responsible manner.  Most people attempting this are not very far along in their development and should be focusing on foundation, but want to add something much further down the road that we know may cause injury.

 

The issue of what things to pick out of foundation is a good question.  Foundation is meant to be holistic meaning it balances itself out providing well rounded development.  That is why we as a community also discourage people from picking certain parts out.  We know it will lead to an imbalance and possibly injury.  However if there is a good coach out there who notices that their athlete is lacking in a certain area it would be fine to take an element out of foundation to fill the hole.  

 

It should be reiterated that this takes an experienced coach to know firstly identify weaknesses and then even have the knowledge to know what elements to add in order to correct them.  That is something that very few of us have experience doing as it takes many years in a sport and quite a bit of knowledge of biomechanics to do. You have already noticed this as you and the athlete were unable to see the benefit of planche in football (american?).

 

For this I will give an example.  A planche will teach you to generate force through your shoulders and gives greater straight arm strength. For this reason it could be applicable to reaching tackles and would contribute to shoulder stability.  Just a small example of what it might do.  An experienced football coach could probably see more benefit if they are able to understand what the planche does biomechanically.

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Daniel Burnham

Ok, well with that kind of endorsement, I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said that all of us now want to see 1) a picture, 2) a detailed description of Daniel's nutrition and recommended resources (is it all based on the Jaminets' perfect health diet?) and 3) a detailed description of his training schedule.

 

Consider this the start of a petition :)

 

M

Ha things like this will come.  I have a before photo but there is really no after photo because I will continue to develop so I guess at some point I will have a during photo :).  Since I dont particularly like shirtless photos of myself floating around I wont post any here.  I probably will do this eventually at the request of Josh if he wants me to for his nutrition, or if coach wanted one.  I am following what is basically the advice of Josh with a using foods that are similar to what was outlined in Perfect Health Diet.  I have found that the Jaminets, Josh, and I basically agree on nutrition and have been going along with this.  I can say that PHD is not at all performance oriented so I get a lot of that from Josh.

 

Anyway I am more about function that form.  I care little about how I look these days and consider muscle development and fat loss to just be a function of a good training program, handwork, and good food.

 

I can promise that if you train hard as outlined here and eat for recovery you will have similar results.

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SuperMan

Ha things like this will come.  I have a before photo but there is really no after photo because I will continue to develop so I guess at some point I will have a during photo :).  Since I dont particularly like shirtless photos of myself floating around I wont post any here.  I probably will do this eventually at the request of Josh if he wants me to for his nutrition, or if coach wanted one.  I am following what is basically the advice of Josh with a using foods that are similar to what was outlined in Perfect Health Diet.  I have found that the Jaminets, Josh, and I basically agree on nutrition and have been going along with this.  I can say that PHD is not at all performance oriented so I get a lot of that from Josh.

 

Anyway I am more about function that form.  I care little about how I look these days and consider muscle development and fat loss to just be a function of a good training program, handwork, and good food.

 

I can promise that if you train hard as outlined here and eat for recovery you will have similar results.

Know what? I ask you to show your pictures!

It comes from SuperMan, you don't have any right to decline!

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Marios Roussos

Ha things like this will come.  I have a before photo but there is really no after photo because I will continue to develop so I guess at some point I will have a during photo :).  Since I dont particularly like shirtless photos of myself floating around I wont post any here.  I probably will do this eventually at the request of Josh if he wants me to for his nutrition, or if coach wanted one.  I am following what is basically the advice of Josh with a using foods that are similar to what was outlined in Perfect Health Diet.  I have found that the Jaminets, Josh, and I basically agree on nutrition and have been going along with this.  I can say that PHD is not at all performance oriented so I get a lot of that from Josh.

 

Anyway I am more about function that form.  I care little about how I look these days and consider muscle development and fat loss to just be a function of a good training program, handwork, and good food.

 

I can promise that if you train hard as outlined here and eat for recovery you will have similar results.

Thanks for the info Daniel. Can't blame you about the reluctance to post a photo; I would feel the same way. It would be motivating for other foundation trainees or those considering committing to the program though, so I thought it would be worth asking.

 

One last question, based on Josh's posts it seems like the physical transformation only started occurring recently, after you completed F2 and started apparatus work. Is that a fair assessment? Would you say that adding apparatus work to the foundation work did more to affect your body composition than the foundation program alone?

 

M

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Daniel Burnham

Thanks for the info Daniel. Can't blame you about the reluctance to post a photo; I would feel the same way. It would be motivating for other foundation trainees or those considering committing to the program though, so I thought it would be worth asking.

 

One last question, based on Josh's posts it seems like the physical transformation only started occurring recently, after you completed F2 and started apparatus work. Is that a fair assessment? Would you say that adding apparatus work to the foundation work did more to affect your body composition than the foundation program alone?

 

M

Before I even start let me state that you must finish the basics before you build on them.  People should not read the post above and decide they should start trying to practice skills without a good base.  This is the fastest way to get hurt and is akin to trying to do a cross to get big shoulders when you cant even do 3 pullups.  Sufficed to say if you cant hold yourself in a support on p-bars for 30 sec you really shouldn't swing similar things go for other events.

 

Now with that said yes I have seen a bit more growth.  I had seen growth before when I was doing basically just F1 and F2 and it was slow and steady.  After I started some apparatus (slowly) i was increasing my work capacity which added volume.  I would say this has done more for me than anything else.  I went from 1 hour a day and have finally built up to 3 hours a day.  This took me about a year to adapt fully to.  At the same time I have been progressed to much more advanced exercises, and have been scaling my nutrition to cover the recovery of my workload.  If I don't eat well I cant sustain this amount of work.  I compete, albeit at low level, now and find it very fun so I have no lack of motivation which is also a big part of it.  

 

Let me reiterate that you shouldn't take away that you should go to 3+ hours of practice a day to get gains.  Everything must be built slowly, otherwise I guarantee you will burn out.  Also everyone has their own rate.

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Jon Douglas

No need to speak for everyone, some of us are happy to say congrats and get to training on our own.

Appreciate the info Daniel.

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Marios Roussos

 

He's been asked once and said no... At this point your persistence is bordering on harassment and getting a little creepy.

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Joshua Naterman

Thanks for the info Daniel. Can't blame you about the reluctance to post a photo; I would feel the same way. It would be motivating for other foundation trainees or those considering committing to the program though, so I thought it would be worth asking.

 

One last question, based on Josh's posts it seems like the physical transformation only started occurring recently, after you completed F2 and started apparatus work. Is that a fair assessment? Would you say that adding apparatus work to the foundation work did more to affect your body composition than the foundation program alone?

 

M

There was a marked difference between when I saw him before he went to Coach's seminar for the first time and something like 6 months later (I think that's right) when I started training with him at the gymnastics gym, and quite frankly I was shocked to see how much he had changed even at that point. This was the point that he was moving into the F3 area as an average, at least based on what we now know about what F1 and F2 consist of. The transformation has been a consistent thing, but I absolutely think that Daniel has benefited from his patience with his Foundation work. All that consistent work got him to the point where he was able to begin some introductory dynamic work, which has definitely been making a positive difference in his physique as well as his athletic ability.

 

I can't say anything about what's happening with dynamic strength, but don't think for a moment that Coach has somehow forgotten about it. Remember that he has always insisted that you need to have a firm Foundation in basic strength before you start doing dynamic stuff, which is what all apparatus work is. You can't turbocharge an engine until you're sure that the frame, exhaust, gaskets, etc. can handle the extra stress, and Foundation work is designed to get your body ready for its turbochargers. The Foundation will always be a priority, and very few of us are at the point where we are ready for dynamic work, while the VAST majority of this forum's members need their Foundation, both in the F7 and in H1. There should be no surprise that these programs (Foundation and Handstand) are where all the focus is right now.

 

I think that right now, even though it's going to burn your brain, the best thing to do is to keep working on your strength, and explore your movement in whatever ways you enjoy outside of the Foundation program as a part of your warm ups.  

 

Don't waste your time speculating on a future you cannot know, guess, or control. Spend your time and effort on the things that are right there in your hands each day, and you will be ready when it is time for more, and more is available for you.

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Nic Branson

Just a reminder here to act respectfully to everyone on the forums.

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