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Brian Li

Static Lever Duration to Kinetic Lever Exercises Correlation

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Brian Li

Does anyone know know if there is a direct correlation between the duration of a static lever to the number of reps of a related kinetic lever exercise? I want to know how many seconds of a planche will give you a rep of a planche push-up and vice versa. Similarly, how many seconds of a FL will give you a rep of FL row and vice versa? In addition, how many seconds of an iron cross will give you a cross pull or butterfly pull to cross? Each rep of a kinetic lever exercise should not count any static holds in between each rep and the rep should be done with good form and full ROM.

 

From my experience with planche and planche push-ups, just training the static planche will not give you planche push-ups without training the planche push-up motion too. Before starting to train planche push-ups, I was only able to do tuck PLPUs despite having a solid full planche. Now that I can do full PLPU, I haven't tested my max full planche time in a long time and currently can't because I still have my tendon injury. So I'm not sure if just doing PLPUs will increase the static planche time.

 

For the FL to FL row correlation, I remember being able to do 2-3 full FL rows without much specific training of the motion when I was able to hold a full FL for about 10 seconds or more, but I also did some OACs from time to time. I think there was a time before where I could hold a full FL for a few seconds and not be able to do a full rep of straddle FL row. Now I can't do a full FL static anymore due to lack of training and maintenance and I'm starting to train for it again this time with a focus on FL rows in an easier body position to see how much transfer there is to the static FL. 

 

For other kinetic lever exercises like planche press HS and front pulls, I remember Paolo say that a 2-3 second planche hold is enough strength to do one rep and I remember personally that a few seconds static FL is enough strength to do one rep of a half ROM front pull from hang and a ~ 10 seconds FL for a full ROM front pull.

 

So can you guys please post your experiences and thoughts on these so I can get some statistics and answers? Thank you all!

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Brian Li

I know bent arm strength and straight strength are different, but in this case with PLPUs and FL rows they are both bent arm and straight arm exercises when done correctly (locking out). The kinetic lever exercises are also a step above static holds with the same TUT in terms of strength. What about also the other straight arm exercises I mentioned like cross and cross pull correlation?

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Jon Douglas

From my experience with planche and planche push-ups, just training the static planche will not give you planche push-ups without training the planche push-up motion too.

 

Bent arm strength and straight arm strength are different animals. Train them as such.

Sure sounds like you guys are saying pretty much the same thing here.

 

Slightly later edit;

As for the cross pulls, Coach mentioned that Heath had a strong cross of +- 15 seconds, but that his cross pulls were still slightly above horizontal. Seems to me another emphasis that despite overlap they are quite distinct.

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Brian Li

I found that static planche strength won't give you PLPUs, but what about the other way around if you lock out in PLPUs too since PLPUs are harder than the static planche just like FL rows are harder than the FL static. I also wanted to know if just working FL rows will improve static FL strength. PLPUs and FL rows transition between straight arm strength and bent arm strength.

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Brian Li

As for the cross pulls, Coach mentioned that Heath had a strong cross of +- 15 seconds, but that his cross pulls were still slightly above horizontal. Seems to me another emphasis that despite overlap they are quite distinct.

Then it seems like a 16-20 second cross will give you enough strength for a cross pull. I wonder what the correlation would be to a butterfly to cross. The FL to front pull correlation seems much greater as somewhere around 10 seconds FL is equal to a front pull and a 2-3 second FL for a half front pull. Same with the planche press to HS where Paolo says a 2-3 second planche will be enough for 1 rep.

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Brian Li

Well, Charm I remembered you had a strong 10+ second full FL before, how many full FL rows could you do and did you do much training for them?

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Jon Douglas

Well, Charm I remembered you had a strong 10+ second full FL before, how many full FL rows could you do and did you do much training for them?

Mm, only one or two, and I wouldn't call them or my FL hold 100% strict. I did end up with around 5-7 half lay rows, for some reason they became 'easy' quite fast.

I haven't touched specific FL work since F1 came out; probably not the best exemplar.

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Connor Davies

My question to you, B1214N (other than how did you come up with that name? :P ) Is how many one arm chins could you do versus front lever rows?

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Joshua Slocum

There's no 'conversion rate'. It's going to depend on your body and how you've trained. 

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Joshua Naterman

Then it seems like a 16-20 second cross will give you enough strength for a cross pull. I wonder what the correlation would be to a butterfly to cross. The FL to front pull correlation seems much greater as somewhere around 10 seconds FL is equal to a front pull and a 2-3 second FL for a half front pull. Same with the planche press to HS where Paolo says a 2-3 second planche will be enough for 1 rep.

The strength you get from a static position only transfers to about 15 degrees away from where you hold, so you shouldn't  expect to see perfect correlations there.

 

The reason that you have to train the whole movement, in addition to the static position, to see good results is that when you move against gravity the forces are higher than when you are simply holding position against gravity. If you don't actually move through a position, your body never gets a chance to adapt to the forces of the controlled movement. Then, later on, you'll be attempting something much more difficult, probably involving a faster movement because that stuff is fun and cool, and you will end up getting injured because you didn't train in a way that strengthened all of your tissues for the higher velocity movements.

 

Without movement, your body will be unprepared for more advanced work in these positions, plain and simple, so don't waste your time by trying to skirt around the movements that lead up to iron cross training or planche push ups.

 

I realize that you, personally, have built up to planche push ups, and you realized in your own training that without movement the planche push ups weren't going to happen. Likewise, if all you're doing at the top of a planche push up is a momentary lockout, you aren't spending enough time in full planche to see any significant improvements in the actual locked arm position.

 

Just spending time with planche push ups won't significantly improve your planche, and just spending time with planche won't improve your planche push ups significantly. If you are doing both, both will improve.

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Brian Li

Mm, only one or two, and I wouldn't call them or my FL hold 100% strict. I did end up with around 5-7 half lay rows, for some reason they became 'easy' quite fast.

I haven't touched specific FL work since F1 came out; probably not the best exemplar.

Thanks! Did you train them concurrently with your FL holds or were they pretty much a byproduct of your static FL training?

 

My question to you, B1214N (other than how did you come up with that name? :P ) Is how many one arm chins could you do versus front lever rows?

I've done 2 OACs on my left arm and 1 on my right arm versus 3 full FL rows, but the later 2 reps were not fully locked out (they were at the point just before lock out, other than that the form was good so I guess just 1 rep of full FL row if you only count 100% strict reps). I think I could have done 2 reps with full lock out if I really tried.

 

I personally like full FL rows more, but it seems like it is harder to build up consecutive reps for OACs than for FL rows.

 

As for how I came up with my username, it is actually a stealthy camouflage of my first name Brian lol.  :P

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Brian Li

The strength you get from a static position only transfers to about 15 degrees away from where you hold, so you shouldn't  expect to see perfect correlations there.

I thought that if it is a static hold at the hardest angle then it will transfer strength throughout the whole ROM. One example is that one time I decided to do a front pull and was able to do one with only static FL training and no training for the bottom half ROM (I usually enter FL from inverted hang and stopped putting any effort once I begin to fail from the FL position). Similarly, I was always able to do the bottom half of a front pull when I had 2+ second FL and with no training for the bottom half ROM. Another example is that I think Gregor once said that some gymnasts get a butterfly pull simply as a byproduct of having a very strong iron cross. Still, I might be wrong about this.

 

I realize that you, personally, have built up to planche push ups, and you realized in your own training that without movement the planche push ups weren't going to happen. Likewise, if all you're doing at the top of a planche push up is a momentary lockout, you aren't spending enough time in full planche to see any significant improvements in the actual locked arm position.

 

Just spending time with planche push ups won't significantly improve your planche, and just spending time with planche won't improve your planche push ups significantly. If you are doing both, both will improve.

That sums it up very nicely, thanks. I was hoping that just doing PLPU or FL row will make your PL or FL strength skyrocket since it is harder and moves through the static position. I did get FL rows without much specific training of FL rows and just by having a strong FL, but I think it may because I also did some OACs from time to time so that might have transferred over some strength to FL rows, but then again I got OACs from training FL a lot - so? Maybe the correlation is different for FL/FL row compared to PL/PLPU?

 

I hypothesize that PLPU and FL row will improve the PL and the FL respectively more than the other way around like I'm sure someone who can do a full PLPU will not have trouble doing an adv tuck PL whereas having a full PL did not automatically give me adv tuck PLPU.

 

It's too bad that I was also hoping and thought that focusing on FL row progressions would get me to a full FL faster than doing FL static progressions. Well I guess I can make FL rows my priority over the FL static and continue the experiment to see how much transfer FL rows will have to the FL.

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Brian Li

Feel free to post your experiences about these. It could be with other body positions too, not just full lay ones. This is just for some statistics.

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Jon Douglas

I didn't do a whole lot of FL rows at all; I got the half lay ones with lots of G2G front pulls and wide grip pullups. I was working indoors over this past winter and did a LOT of pulls on a doorway bar whenever I got restless (I get restless a lot ^_^)

 

I'm burning curious to see the difference that structured Foundation work will bring to my FL when I get there.

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Brian Li

I GTG with a lot of skills too. Did you actually find front pulls harder than FL rows?

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Jon Douglas

I GTG with a lot of skills too. Did you actually find front pulls harder than FL rows?

Full lay front pulls are harder for me than half lay rows last time I checked, at least with only a couple reps at a time. I could rep out 1/2 front pulls with a couple seconds hold, but I really struggled with pulling past horizontal in full lay.

 

In retrospect, it may be that my lats/mid back is/was much stronger than my shoulders/upper back complex. I didn't really have any traps development to speak of until I broke into press handstands late last year.

 

With all the lever work in F2 I'm not sure whether this is still the case...

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Brian Li

Wait if you didn't get the FL rows from specific training then your static FL and front pull strength must have heavily transferred over since front pulls being the direct kinetic version of the FL are more specific to the muscular recruitment in a FL. Maybe the wide grip pull-ups had something to do with it, but then again if they were not weighted then I doubt that had much carryover to FL rows (half lay and above). 

 

I experienced something similar, with a strong lengthy FL and some OAC work from time to time I was able to do a full lay FL row on the first try with only a negligible amount of FL row sets in the past. My OACs also came from doing a lot of static FL work. This is very different from my experience in the planche to planche push-up transfer. 

 

For front pulls, I also struggled with pulling past the FL. The half ROM front pulls are so much easier. Which one was actually harder for you full lay front pulls or full FL rows?

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Jon Douglas

Definitely full lay front pulls. But this isn't exactly lab conditions, I have been training in some form most of my life. It makes sense that my strengths would be skewed and Im really not sure how much can be read into it.

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Brian Li

Definitely full lay front pulls. But this isn't exactly lab conditions, I have been training in some form most of my life. It makes sense that my strengths would be skewed and Im really not sure how much can be read into it.

Got it. I wonder if there are people who find that just strengthening the planche carries over a lot to planche push-ups without doing much of similar bent arm exercises.

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Connor Davies

If you don't have a planche, you can't do a full lay planche pushup, right?

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Brian Li

If you don't have a planche, you can't do a full lay planche pushup, right?

Most likely not unless you count very ugly ones with partial ROM or ones with a lot of momentum. I'm sure someone who has a good form planche push-up should be able to hold a planche for at least one second. Just being able to hold a planche does not guarantee someone to be able to do a planche push-up. That's why I think a planche push-up will transfer to a planche more than the other way around.

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