Edward Smith Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I am deciding whether to incorporate some morning workouts. These workouts would take the place of the same workout later in the day, so I would be working with the same training volume/intensity all other things being relative. I just have some thoughts/questions regarding performing morning workouts.Note: I am a high school student, so these workouts would be early morning (6ish)1. Cortisol is (naturally) elevated in the morning and training (exercise) tends to elevate cortisol as well, so could this be advantageous? In that it would minimize cortisol elevations over the span of the day, especially late afternoon/night (which can lessen sleep quality/quantity). And as the role, as is my understanding, of morning cortisol is to energise you maybe this would add to that effect assuming I'm not training to failure.2. I know so people believe doing cardio fasted is the better way to do it, I don't think it makes much difference. Would strength training before breakfast i.e fasted be detrimental and to what extent. I don't usually eat anything an hour (at least) before I train.Cheers,Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew.percussion Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I enjoy morning workouts as well. But For me school starts really early. I'm out of the house before 6:30.Normally when I workout I do skills from 5-7:15ish and strength for 45mins followed by 10-15 minutes of stretching.I won't eat anything(except an apple) after 1 before I go to practice. I feel more alert and lighter. However, I do eat an apple about 30 minutes ahead of time. Just so I don't feel hungry during practice which is even worse.Not sure if I helped any, just wanted to throw in my two cents.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffdrc Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 first... i wouldn't worry about cortisol levels... working out in the morning is fine... second... i wouldn't work out fasted... i would try to get some protien in me before i workout... the most important times of the day to get protien is ~1 hr before exercise and within an hour after exercise... and before exercise has actually been shown to be slighly more effective than after... try to get 10-20g before and ~30 after... you really don't need any more than that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Smith Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 griffdrc,could you point me to some research/sources of Prtoein pre-workout, I would like to look into it myself.Cheers,Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It wasn't shown it was better and especialy not more effective. Before work out you must take free form amino acids (much faster in your blood stream like normal proteins) aprox.20-30 minutes (with newest technolgy even faster 15 minutes). After workout you must take imediatly protein shake with Carbohydrates and if you want even more again free form amino acids especialy leucin, glutamin, and some vitamins for protein absorbtion. The anabolic window after workout takes approx. 1 hour, so it's best that you take shake in time of your after-strength-stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviec.54 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Gregor is absolutely right with regards to pre and post nutrition. Training is important but proper nutrition will elevate your training which will elevate the results. Here's a good pre meal: McCann's Oatmeal, Chopped up bananas, chopped up apples, mix in some peanut butter and add all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Kornishev Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think you overanalyze the importance of food/hormon, etc... levels for workout... in the end it really won't make any difference for your athletic performance weather you eat in the morning before working out or not especially for a sport like gymnastics. If anything excessive amount of food consumed prior to training session will create discomfort in your stomach especially if workout is aimed at conditioning. You will progress with or without extra amino-acids floating around in your blood stream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Normally, I would agree with you; in the past I have also tended to dismiss such advice. However when you have an extremely strong ringman of Gregor's calibre sharing his training protocol with you, I believe that that information should at least be considered. Perhaps try it yourself or other forum members may decide to experiment with it, the forum can then evaluate the posted results carefully and then decide whether or not the approach in question has merit; but I believe that it would be a mistake to simply dismiss it out of hand because it differs from our usual habits. Regardless, it is definitely some interesting food for thought.Samples of Gregor's ring strength training may be found throughout the following thread.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think you overanalyze the importance of food/hormon, etc... levels for workout... in the end it really won't make any difference for your athletic performance weather you eat in the morning before working out or not especially for a sport like gymnastics. If anything excessive amount of food consumed prior to training session will create discomfort in your stomach especially if workout is aimed at conditioning. You will progress with or without extra amino-acids floating around in your blood stream.Not true! If you have free from amino acids befor workout you won't have any discomfort, you can drink them or ate them in kapsules.Here nobody said you must ate like bear befor workout. IT's good to eat at least 2 hour prior workout, or like somethnig like whey protein shake one hour prior workout."You will progress with or without extra amino-acids floating around in your blood stream" this is the same if you say that you will have a progrees if you are a vegan or meat-eater. Yes both will have a progress, BUT NOT THE SAME!!!!Other question is, are you competitive, how serious do you train, how hard, for what goals do you train, are you want peak performence or not."especially for a sport like gymnastics" :shock: that hurts Many gmnast train very hard and for hard training you need proper nutrition. And don't forget we are not in year 1970. I don't belive that any sportsman atall in this OLYMPICS was without of any food supplement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Normally, I would agree with you; in the past I have also tended to dismiss such advice. However when you have an extremely strong ringman of Gregor's calibre sharing his training protocol with you, I believe that that information should at least be considered. Perhaps try it yourself or other forum members may decide to experiment with it, the forum can then evaluate the posted results carefully and then decide whether or not the approach in question has merit; but I believe that it would be a mistake to simply dismiss it out of hand because it differs from our usual habits. Regardless, it is definitely some interesting food for thought.Samples of Gregor's ring strength training may be found throughout the following thread.Yours in Fitness,Coach SommerI guess I'm a slow writer, I'm not used of keyboard and you beat me Oh Coach thanx, for support :oops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I can understand RF's opinion, I'm guilty of letting "the perfect be the enemy of the good" too often... but it is still valuable to know what is OPTIMAL (ie quickest, best, fastest, most efficient) for all aspects of training, so I appreciate Gregor's (and everyone elses) input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Smith Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'm unable to really buy many supplements. Especially at the moment, I can't even afford fish oil which is number 1 priority. I do agree on Post-workout nutrition, of course. Gregor, could you list the free form amino acids? Are they just certain amino acids? Or if I went to the supplement store would I be able to find a bottle saying free form amino acids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffdrc Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 gregor the way i understand it... you should eat a meal ~2hrs before or a protien shake ~1hr before...i was taught that the impoprtant EAAs are leucine, iso-leucine & valine... but that the only way to effectively take them is through IV... that they are not well absorbed through the gi tract...the reason for protien consumption before exercise... is to elevate amino acid levels... that will increase muscle protien synthesis or atleast slow down the catabolic effects (breakdown of muscle) that takes place during exercise... without protien your body will break itself down more... there is no super compensation effect... more broken down means longer recovery... proper nutrition allows for more workouts at a higher intensity...you don't want to eat alot before you workout... may cause cramping, bloating, etc.... however you do want to eat something... as little as 10g has shown positive results... i would not suggest more than ~30g at one time... excess aminos get converted into urea in the liver and excreted... ed... i'll have to go back through my notes from last semester to find the articles... if you have access search medline/pubmed... its where i found the articles... oh and a mixed meal is as effective or more than protien supplementation...RF guy... hormones and food are very important.... the problem is there is not enough information on the topics... a lot more research is needed... nutrition, # of reps/sets, duration of rest between sets and intensity all effect hormones and can effect what sceme you choose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Kornishev Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh, I am sorry if my response sounded dismissive or in any way disrespectful, I did not mean it that way. And it was not meant to take anything away from Gregor, he has all my admiration as an athlete and a person who contributes so much for this board. What I said was meant for this specific case. If I have time to workout early in the morning only (and that's exactly the case for me, 5:00 am) and I have to wake up 1-2 hours earlier (it would make it 3:00-4:00 am) just in order to eat because I am concerned about cortisol vs. insulin level, I would say it is really not important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'm unable to really buy many supplements. Especially at the moment, I can't even afford fish oil which is number 1 priority. I do agree on Post-workout nutrition, of course. Gregor, could you list the free form amino acids? Are they just certain amino acids? Or if I went to the supplement store would I be able to find a bottle saying free form amino acids?You have EAA (esential amino acids) or BCAA (branch-chained amino acids) If you want both take EAA prior and BCAA in training time, If just one I would recomend BCAA.NUMBER ONE SUPPLEMENT ARE VITAMINS!!!!and after that proteins and other (ok if you are a vegeterian I would prefer a proteins istead of vitamins). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 "gregor the way i understand it... you should eat a meal ~2hrs before or a protien shake ~1hr before...i was taught that the impoprtant EAAs are leucine, iso-leucine & valine... but that the only way to effectively take them is through IV... that they are not well absorbed through the gi tract..."Leucin, Valin and Iso-Leucin are BCAA, and they are aslo included in EAA.Glutamin has only 20% of dietary absorbcion because of gastro intestistenal tracts fringes they like glutamin From BCAA a body can make a glutamin on his own."the reason for protien consumption before exercise... is to elevate amino acid levels... that will increase muscle protien synthesis or atleast slow down the catabolic effects (breakdown of muscle) that takes place during exercise... without protien your body will break itself down more... there is no super compensation effect... more broken down means longer recovery... proper nutrition allows for more workouts at a higher intensity..."I've read the study that protein shake prior workout didn't is rated to high.To high level of amino acids just take free form amino acids."you don't want to eat alot before you workout... may cause cramping, bloating, etc.... however you do want to eat something... as little as 10g has shown positive results... i would not suggest more than ~30g at one time... excess aminos get converted into urea in the liver and excreted... "One study Expression of growth-related genes in young and old human skeletal muscle following an acute stimulation of protein synthesisMicah J. Drummond1*, Mitsunori Miyazaki2, Hans C. Dreyer3, Bart Pennings1, Shaheen Dhanani1, Elena Volpi1, Karyn A. Esser2, and Blake B. Rasmussen11 University of Texas Medical Branch2 University of Kentucky3 University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: mjdrummo@utmb.edu.Muscle growth is associated with an activation of the mTOR signaling pathway and satellite cell regulators. The purpose of this study was to determine whether 17 selected genes associated with mTOR/muscle protein synthesis and the satellite cells/myogenic program are differentially expressed in young and older human skeletal muscle at rest and in response to a potent anabolic stimulus (resistance exercise+essential amino acid ingestion; RE+EAA). Twelve male subjects (6 young, 6 old) completed a bout of heavy resistance exercise. Muscle biopsies were obtained before and at 3 and 6h post RE+EAA. Subjects ingested leucine-enriched essential amino acids at 1h post-exercise. mRNA expression was determined using qRT-PCR. At rest, hVps34 mRNA was elevated in the old (P<0.05) while there was a tendency for levels of myoD, myogenin and TSC2 mRNA to be higher than young. The anabolic stimulus (RE+EAA) altered mRNAs associated with mTOR regulation. Notably, REDD2 decreased in both age groups (P<0.05) but the expression of Rheb mRNA increased only in the young. Finally, cMyc mRNA was elevated (P<0.05) in both young and old at 6h post RE+EAA. Furthermore, RE+EAA also increased expression of several mRNAs associated with satellite function in the young (P<0.05), while expression of these mRNAs did not change in the old. We conclude that several anabolic genes in muscle are more responsive in young men post RE+EAA. Our data provide new insights into the regulation of genes important for transcription and translation in young and old human skeletal muscle post RE+EAA."ed... i'll have to go back through my notes from last semester to find the articles... if you have access search medline/pubmed... its where i found the articles... oh and a mixed meal is as effective or more than protien supplementation..."Of course, Protein shake is just a supplement in normal food diet and nothing more. But all suplements can increase your natural potencial and performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh, I am sorry if my response sounded dismissive or in any way disrespectful, I did not mean it that way. And it was not meant to take anything away from Gregor, he has all my admiration as an athlete and a person who contributes so much for this board. What I said was meant for this specific case. If I have time to workout early in the morning only (and that's exactly the case for me, 5:00 am) and I have to wake up 1-2 hours earlier (it would make it 3:00-4:00 am) just in order to eat because I am concerned about cortisol vs. insulin level, I would say it is really not important.I agree.But for me means 10-15% of better performance alot. Just my experience 2 years and half ago, before my supplement nutrition I had more CNS brakdowns with much less demanding trainings and hug drops of strenght were pretty common. Now there where just one or two CNS break downs in 2-3 years time, and in last year very good levels of strenght spikes.When did I decided to take food supplements when I couldn't do a ordinary cross although my personal record was 35 secondsOk it something due to training system and something due my diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 cklik on AMINO ACIDS DEGRADATION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymrob Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hi Gregor,Thanks for all this info it's great! I am just trying to research this area of nutrition myself. I know at first that when Ido and others have recommended information by Charles Poliquin etc I didn't read much because I thought that a lot of the information was directed at more bodybuilders and certainly wouldn't be much use to a gymnastics trainer since the structural damage that occurs is less than following bodybuilding protocols.BUT...now I am reading many articles on the internet and it appears that it is not just the muscular repair that is vital and to be considered when taking whey protein etc but dealing with subsequent hormones from exercise and CNS recovery etc etc. To be honest it is hard to try to narrow down to quality information andGregor I was wondering what your recomendations are for whey protein. I know that isolate form is one of the higher qualities of protein etc but when I looked at a whey protein supplement from a local shop I noticed it had a sweetner called sucralose and didn't buy the product since I wasn't sure whether this was necessary or optimal. It's hard to know what's best and also trying to get my parents to accept that I will take supplements (they think that once I take whey I will start taking others such as creatine etc etc).Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 sucralosa http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/21462 ... alosa.htmlBasicly is a sweetener. Manufactures are using sweetener like sucralosa, aspartam,.....instead of normal Crabo hydrate based sugars. So if you want a powder proteins with taste of chocholate, apple, strawberry or whatever you need those sweeteners.If you don't want sweeteners just ask for neutral/natural version, a version without any added taste and no sweeteners.Isolate is for those who wants peak performance, for the rest it's ok concetrate. And you can found both in neutral/natural versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymrob Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Ah that's interesting . 600 times sweeter than sugar! ouch!As long as there aren't any health issues involved with its consumption I am fine with it.http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/vf/labels/021920HB.pdfThis was the whey powder I was considering getting. It seems quite reasonable...just not sure on a few of the ingredients.thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I don't know the brand, but it's a normal protein powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Smith Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Very interesting info/discussion raised. I have heard of taking BCAA's pre, peri and post-workout from multiple trainers (Charles Poliquin, Christian Thibaudeau, many others) with good results.However, for me it is currently not an option to supplement with BCAA's or anything of the like. I meant in regards to exercising before breakfast (without eating) would it be detrimental compared to exercising 1-2 hours after eating, and from what people have said it appears not. NUMBER ONE SUPPLEMENT ARE VITAMINS!!!!I personally disagree, I think fish oil is more important (supplement wise) assuming you are eating plenty of fresh fruit and veg. But I believe everyone has their own opinion on the most important supplements and it is a person by person thing. Actually, could Magnesium and/or Zinc pre-workout have positive or negative effects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambo5501 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I'm with ed x, the best supplement is fish oil, hands down no comparison to any other. Even for people that don't exercise. As far as the pre and post nutrition, with the amino acids, only if you are trying to compete or similar don't bother, yes it will give you a push, but for most of the people that are here (non-conpeating gymnasts) it is almost a waste. And it does not matter weather or not you work out fasting, in fact it is better for some types of training. Try drinking a nice shake before doing suicides and/or sprints if you are pushing your self hard enough most likely that shake is going to want to come back out. But in gymnastic type training especially like I said the non compeating one my advise is not to spend money on amino acids buy some fish oil and maybe some multy vitamin. Edit: the most important aspect of ANY training is the overall nutrition. Even most important than the training it self (some experts say) and I kind of agree. Paleo & IF, but then again there are it's exeptions for it, bodybuilding & endurance training are 2 I can name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamprowse Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 i must say, i am vegan and find some of this quit silly to pay attention to.try a fresh glass of juice from 6 carrots, two apples, one orange, garlic, flaxseed and whatever else i can find, then workout half an hour after and you will feel some energy!!!you really dont need that much protien, you can still have results with it, but others have found better ways with vegan diets.heres a good movie that gives you a very brief overview of what i go by: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5867837730enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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