Gymnasts Muscle Mass

[Joshua Naterman]

LOL @ Daniel!

 

We both brought up Blake Yea, I think he's ~8-9%. Beast.

[Mikkel Ravn]

Doesn't this discussion just underline that fitness enthusiasts need, above all, patience?

 

We've, to a certain extent, been led to believe through our childish impatience that we can undergo that "Totally radical body transformation YOU deserve - Get JACKED in six weeks"-type of thing, and when we can't, we consider ourselves failures. People need to realize that consistency over time is a fundamental piece of the puzzle, if any kind of transformation is to take place - Mental or physical. People on this forum in general recognize this, because Coach says so, and anyone can tell that you don't become the least bit proficient with gymnastics overnight. But the public in general isn't aware of it, I think. People I know gasp and shake their head when I tell them that I plan on reaching my GST goals in four or five years.

[Guest SuperBru]

Doesn't this discussion just underline that fitness enthusiasts need, above all, patience?

 

We've, to a certain extent, been led to believe through our childish impatience that we can undergo that "Totally radical body transformation YOU deserve - Get JACKED in six weeks"-type of thing, and when we can't, we consider ourselves failures. People need to realize that consistency over time is a fundamental piece of the puzzle, if any kind of transformation is to take place - Mental or physical. People on this forum in general recognize this, because Coach says so, and anyone can tell that you don't become the least bit proficient with gymnastics overnight. But the public in general isn't aware of it, I think. People I know gasp and shake their head when I tell them that I plan on reaching my GST goals in four or five years.

Patience is not something that I lack. When I made the decision to pursue fitness my friends bet that I would last 2 weeks max. I couldn't blame them as I was a skinny weakling with no self confidence. So far I have been training consistently for 7 months. Let's just say that my friends greatly underestimated my determination and patience. It was very hard in the beginning. I was watching jacked dudes doing amazing stuff and there I was struggling to even do push ups. I have come a very long way since then and will continue to progress through the F series and beyond.

[SuperMan]

Elite level gymnasts use steroids. People think that because gymnastics is not bodybuilding, steroids won't benefit them.

And it's actually wrong. Very wrong. Steroids can enchance your performance, enchance your recovery(1 of the reasons why

they capable of training every day), steroids let you destroy the wall that is called genetics.

I by no means say that their muscle mass is a result of just steroids, but I do say that steroids play a good part in it.

 

Yours in fitness, SuperMan!

New mission arrived to save the world, see you later!

[Guest SuperBru]

Elite level gymnasts use steroids. People think that because gymnastics is not bodybuilding, steroids won't benefit them.

And it's actually wrong. Very wrong. Steroids can enchance your performance, enchance your recovery(1 of the reasons why

they capable of training every day), steroids let you destroy the wall that is called genetics.

I by no means say that their muscle mass is a result of just steroids, but I do say that steroids play a good part in it.

 

Yours in fitness, SuperMan!

New mission arrived to save the world, see you later!

I'm going to have to disagree with you based on the fact that you don't have any factual evidence.

[Joshua Slocum]

I'm focussing on elite level gymnasts. I'm looking for a factual answer as too why elite level gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on an average diet. 

 

How many elite-level gymnasts' diets have you examined in detail? I've yet to see any solid evidence that elite level gymnasts eat an 'average diet', let alone a 'crap' one. 

 

 

That said, it doesn't take perfect nutrition to get large. Anyone working out 20+ hours a week for 5-10 years will get big as long as they're eating enough protein and calories. 

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) my friends bet that I would last 2 weeks max. (...)

 

HAHAHAHAHA... you seem to attract that sort of things...

Some of us here have bets going on for your CTI in 2 years (99 weeks now...)

 

Elite level gymnasts use steroids.

(...)

Yours in fitness, SuperMan!

 

Uh oh... this is not going to end well...

[Quick Start Test Smith]

have you considered doing a sticky in the nutrition forum covering nutrition in the other 20+hrs that we do not spend working out? basics like percentage of carbs/protein/fat ratio, how often we should eat and when not to. I'm looking for this kind of information because of my hyperthyroidism and i've notice i've gone up in body fat% due to eating out and such

 

Read through his other posts, Keilani! He has given the basics already.

[Joshua Naterman]

I think the best part of this discussion is already behind us, and it's getting time to move on to other things.

 

Eat, train, sleep, take care of the rest of your life, and let yourself grow at your own pace. That's how it happens.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

Read through his other posts, Keilani! He has given the basics already.

I wish I knew which terms to look for in the search. if i narrow it down to carbs, proteins, fat, %, I can't really give it the detail it deserves because my goal is to loose body fat % while maintaining muscle growth. 

 

from what I've gathered so far, food chemistry(veggies with every meal, proteins, carbs and fats with every meal) and that to avoid lean tissue consumption, it would be wise to sip on a protein drink while out walking is what I got. 

 

the next step after this would be to consolidate a list of resources I can use here in my country (I ask these questions because to buy a watermelon, you have to pay $15. for a small box of blueberries, $5) food prices are ridiculous here. 

 

edit: going back to dissecting the nutrition forum. 

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I wish I knew which terms to look for in the search. if i narrow it down to carbs, proteins, fat, %, I can't really give it the detail it deserves because my goal is to loose body fat % while maintaining muscle growth. 

 

from what I've gathered so far, food chemistry(veggies with every meal, proteins, carbs and fats with every meal) and that to avoid lean tissue consumption, it would be wise to sip on a protein drink while out walking is what I got. 

 

the next step after this would be to consolidate a list of resources I can use here in my country (I ask these questions because to buy a watermelon, you have to pay $15. for a small box of blueberries, $5) food prices are ridiculous here. 

 

edit: going back to dissecting the nutrition forum. 

 

Holy cow, that is expensive.

 

I will send you something that he once told me about general nutrition, and I think it will help you a little bit, although it is not as specific as you'd like.

[Guest SuperBru]

How many elite-level gymnasts' diets have you examined in detail? I've yet to see any solid evidence that elite level gymnasts eat an 'average diet', let alone a 'crap' one. 

 

 

That said, it doesn't take perfect nutrition to get large. Anyone working out 20+ hours a week for 5-10 years will get big as long as they're eating enough protein and calories. 

You got me on that one. I don't have any factual evidence. I'm just basing my argument on one interview which is a big generalisation. On a side note I like discussions because everyone has their own opinion and viewpoint. 

[Guest SuperBru]

HAHAHAHAHA... you seem to attract that sort of things...

Some of us here have bets going on for your CTI in 2 years (99 weeks now...)

 

 

Uh oh... this is not going to end well...

Please bear in mind that I will have to finish the F series first:p I will promise you that as soon as i'm done I will train hard for the CTI;)  As for SuperMan steroids is an inappropriate topic to talk about on the forums. You will be lucky not to get your comment removed.

[Marcos Mocine-McQueen]

 

the next step after this would be to consolidate a list of resources I can use here in my country (I ask these questions because to buy a watermelon, you have to pay $15. for a small box of blueberries, $5) food prices are ridiculous here. 

 

edit: going back to dissecting the nutrition forum. 

I sympathize with your expensive food situation. I, too, live on an island and was shocked at the price of fruits. That was until I let go of my ideas about what fruits and veggies are... If you're trying to eat watermelons and grapes on an island where they're not grown you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You've got to start with where you are and what you've got and build from there.

 

Those are expensive prices you site. The thing I noticed is this: those fruits aren't native to your area. Most likely they are imported from Central America. What you're paying for isn't the cost of those foods, it's the cost of shipping them from where they're grown. 

 

My advice is this, get out and do as much research as you can about the more traditional diet of Puerto Ricans. You can start with the veggies and fruits eaten by the Taino, but you needn't limit to that.

 

Find a kind bisabuela and ask what they ate when she was a child, before the era of mass shipping. She likely grew up eating fruits and veggies that, native or not, are readily grown on the island. Hopefully these will be cheaper. 

 

Likewise see if you can't find a jibaro willing to tell you what he/she grows. Those, again, are likely to be cheaper. Find out where they sell them. I know that there are a few farmer's markets on the island... are you close to any of those? 

 

When I stopped grabbing what was familiar and started grabbing what was local, my costs went way down. I had to start asking folks what things were and how to cook them. My Japanese is really bad, but the older women here were really kind and gentle when they saw that I was interested in their foods. Many an older lady has taken 10 minutes pantomiming how to prepare some massive, brown, dirt covered veggie.

 

JN and others, please correct me if Im wrong in what I'm about to say. When JN and the other well-read folks here list foods to eat they are rarely saying that you should eat those specific foods. They are only giving examples of foods that work well in their lives, given their location and their resources. What I believe they are saying is eat a diverse diet, including adequate protein and lots of veggies and fruits. Use whole foods rather than highly-processed food-like products. I think that they would agree with me in saying that the actual foods in that diet are going to be very different depending on your geography, finances and individual needs. What I ate while living in Colorado was different from what I ate while living in California and those are both different from what I eat in Japan. 

[Keilani Gutierrez]

I sympathize with your expensive food situation. I, too, live on an island and was shocked at the price of fruits. That was until I let go of my ideas about what fruits and veggies are... If you're trying to eat watermelons and grapes on an island where they're not grown you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You've got to start with where you are and what you've got and build from there.

 

Those are expensive prices you site. The thing I noticed is this: those fruits aren't native to your area. Most likely they are imported from Central America. What you're paying for isn't the cost of those foods, it's the cost of shipping them from where they're grown. 

 

My advice is this, get out and do as much research as you can about the more traditional diet of Puerto Ricans. You can start with the veggies and fruits eaten by the Taino, but you needn't limit to that.

 

Find a kind bisabuela and ask what they ate when she was a child, before the era of mass shipping. She likely grew up eating fruits and veggies that, native or not, are readily grown on the island. Hopefully these will be cheaper. 

 

Likewise see if you can't find a jibaro willing to tell you what he/she grows. Those, again, are likely to be cheaper. Find out where they sell them. I know that there are a few farmer's markets on the island... are you close to any of those? 

 

When I stopped grabbing what was familiar and started grabbing what was local, my costs went way down. I had to start asking folks what things were and how to cook them. My Japanese is really bad, but the older women here were really kind and gentle when they saw that I was interested in their foods. Many an older lady has taken 10 minutes pantomiming how to prepare some massive, brown, dirt covered veggie.

 

JN and others, please correct me if Im wrong in what I'm about to say. When JN and the other well-read folks here list foods to eat they are rarely saying that you should eat those specific foods. They are only giving examples of foods that work well in their lives, given their location and their resources. What I believe they are saying is eat a diverse diet, including adequate protein and lots of veggies and fruits. Use whole foods rather than highly-processed food-like products. I think that they would agree with me in saying that the actual foods in that diet are going to be very different depending on your geography, finances and individual needs. What I ate while living in Colorado was different from what I ate while living in California and those are both different from what I eat in Japan. 

thanks so much for making that distinction, I'm familiar with eating in season and out of season produce, which is something im getting much more acquainted on now since i've been visiting my neighbors food forest project in Rincon. which is a first for me. 

 

per farmers markets, they're starting to pop up and I get stuff from there but the baskets are ridiculously priced as well. even for in season stuff, i'll take a picture of an assortment so you guys can get an idea.

 

right now im in the stage of learning the science, so i can apply it to my resources, as you have said. good one on the bisabuela reference now I'm feeling like arroz, habichuelas y bistec encebollado. xD  

[Matth Challoner]

Aren't a lot of the fruits from that area really high in sugar content? I'm just saying because you don't wan't to go overboard on fruit if they've got a load of sugar in them?

[Colin Macdonald]

I'm focussing on elite level gymnasts. I'm looking for a factual answer as too why elite level gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on an average diet. 

Because overfeeding and massive protein requirements to build muscle are largely myths. Functional muscle growth is a hormonal/training response.  I've seen overfeeding studies that did show subjects put on lean mass with fat, but the ratio was something insane like 3 to 1 fat to lean mass gains. But it requires heroic overeating. Then you need to try and lose the fat without losing all the muscle as well. That's what bodybuilders often do, but it's not very functional for gymnasts. And pound for pound, gymnasts blow bodybuilders out of the water in terms of functional strength.

 

These articles encapsulate my thoughts pretty neatly:

http://mennohenselmans.com/workout-nutrition-is-a-scam/

http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

 

I'm going to disappear now before somebody yells at me. 

[Indeep Jawanda]

One response by Coach here will put an end to the discussion.

[Joshua Naterman]

Because overfeeding and massive protein requirements to build muscle are largely myths. Functional muscle growth is a hormonal/training response.  I've seen overfeeding studies that did show subjects put on lean mass with fat, but the ratio was something insane like 3 to 1 fat to lean mass gains. But it requires heroic overeating. Then you need to try and lose the fat without losing all the muscle as well. That's what bodybuilders often do, but it's not very functional for gymnasts. And pound for pound, gymnasts blow bodybuilders out of the water in terms of functional strength.

 

These articles encapsulate my thoughts pretty neatly:

http://mennohenselmans.com/workout-nutrition-is-a-scam/

http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

 

I'm going to disappear now before somebody yells at me. 

The first is actually a very good link for people to read.

 

The second... is full of both truth and misconceptions. The general truth is right there, and it is absolutely accurate: For the majority of people training, which includes nearly all fitness enthusiasts and certainly bodybuilding athletes as well, the most important thing to do is to simply

to get protein before and after the workout, and to eat all day long. That's it. Basics build great physiques.

 

When you start getting into athletes who have to train multiple times per day, this starts breaking down. The supporting data is looking at one relatively brief (one hour or less) training session, 3-5x per week. Within reason, if you are simply getting your food into your body at reasonable rates throughout the day, getting the basics (carbs, protein, fat) at every meal, you have plenty of time for your body to fully recover.

 

It is not that there is no such thing as an anabolic window, because these studies, when examined in detail, show that the window is in response to both exercise AND food intake, AND that it is directly proportional to the size of the stimulus given. Rather, for people training as described above, they will achieve full adaptation without having to be as detail-oriented.

 

When you start getting into multi-hour sessions, multiple sessions per day, training every day of the week full body, etc (all are things that athletes and those who train like them will experience) then this starts breaking down, because nutrient timing and the physiological consequences are quite real, and you start training before you have recovered. This is where over-training, muscle mass loss, and injury start to occur even in those who appear, purely by weekly sum numbers, to be doing the right things.

 

So, in short, most people here can safely accept what has been said, which is that if you are not working out all the freaking time then you can just stick to good nutrition, and stick to maybe 1.6g/kg of body weight for protein each day, and you'll get great results.

 

If you're training 2-3x per day, 5-7 days per week, which will apply to many of our performers and professional athletes, then you will benefit from being a little more detail-oriented.

[Jon Douglas]

One response by Coach here will put an end to the discussion.

Think he's already done that. 'Train hard, eat lots of vegetables, some protein, drink lots of water, and then get back to training.' A man after my own heart.

 

 

As for the nutrient timing links, I like that they critique a lot of the methodology-- not seen often enough, particularly on the internet. For myself, I train first thing in the morning and nearly fasted aside from Josh's peri-workout guidelines for 30 mins prior and immediate prior shake. I swear daily I am getting a touch leaner and more muscular, my recovery is excellent, and I keep progressing. That effect is only going to compound as I spend time with more taxing exercises

[Joshua Naterman]

What I don't like is the cherry-picking. If you go online, you will see a whole bunch of studies, all peer-reviewed, and many done with very good methodology, showing that there ARE important differences in physiological response due to nutrient timing and stimulus timing.

 

What is lacking, in general, is critical thinking in the reviews. It is unusual for researchers to have first-hand experience with many different modes, durations, and frequencies of training, and I'll go so far as to say that the results are never put in the context of "how long does it take to fully recover when using this particular intervention " and then compare this timeframe to the work being performed by the muscle groups in question.

 

It is not normal to see situations where this is an issue, but you will see it with in-season team sport athletes and people who have similar practice schedules. These guys are working out twice a day 5-7 days per week, and they WILL need more specific nutrition than what applies to the general population, for one simple reason: They are doing tons of hard work at a higher frequency (less recovery time) than we see in normal fitness or bodybuilding populations, and as such it's more important for these guys to NOT miss that three hours post workout. If they do, they'll be at an energy deficit when they start their next training session, and from there the downward spiral continues. That's why so many professional athletes will absolutely complain about how much, and how often, they have to eat.

 

You won't see this in sprinters, because they train hard 3x per week.

 

Does some of what I'm saying make sense? We need to understand WHY the general message of those links is applicable to nearly everyone, and not make the mistake of thinking that there's no such thing as nutrient timing.

 

We also do not know what the effect of this is over an athletic career, or during a competition season, and I think that quite a bit of research is still needed in those areas, but that it probably won't happen because it is nearly impossible to track things for that long with any real accuracy.

[Colin Macdonald]

Does some of what I'm saying make sense? We need to understand WHY the general message of those links is applicable to nearly everyone, and not make the mistake of thinking that there's no such thing as nutrient timing.

 

We also do not know what the effect of this is over an athletic career, or during a competition season, and I think that quite a bit of research is still needed in those areas, but that it probably won't happen because it is nearly impossible to track things for that long with any real accuracy.

 

I absolutely agree, I think that’s the important idea to analyze. I just take an opposite view in that I think that the applicability to the average non-professional athlete is extremely limited (I also strongly agree that there is a sever lack of long term research in regards to athletics).  I absolutely agree that, for example, athletes doing multiple glycogen draining training sessions require special consideration regarding nutrient timing. You’d need to take full advantage of increased glycogen uptake and get ready as quickly as possible for the next round. That’s extremely important when you’re talking about elite level athletes that are looking for even that 1% boost in performance. But I personally feel that while that extra effort is perhaps essential to professionals it is simply a hindrance to the average fitness enthusiast.

 

I remain convinced that our bodies are far more capable of self management than we imagine. And (and I borrow this view from Alan Aragon, not from direct research I’ve performed myself) that there is a hierarchy of importance with nutrition:

 

Alan Aragon said:

 

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it’s crucial to realize there’s an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly (my emphasis) below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. 

 

I think nutrient timing is important too. Get your macros down your facehole at some point within the time you wake to the time you sleep, and time your meals so that they maximize & do not hinder performance - which again, will vary with individual goals, preference, and tolerance.

 

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

 

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction. (my emphasis)

 

(I don't want to cherry pick here though, I want to be clear that Alan is a proponent of pre or post workout nutrition)

 

The average person simply needs to eat an average healthy diet to get everything they need to fuel their exercise. Back to the original question, “Why do elite gymnasts get so strong on an average diet?â€. Because an average diet with an average amount of protein is all that’s needed. Athletes get muscular due to the right training combined with the right hormones, not because they drank more milk at the right time.

 

My view is that not only is worrying about nutrient timing not necessary for 99% of the population, but the potential extra complication can act as a demotivator and source of anxiety. I found an article from Lyle McDonald quite revealing (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.html):

 

 

-We don’t know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes.

-We know that a protein intake of 1.4 g/lb (3.0 g/kg) isn’t harmful and may have benefits that are too small to be measured in research

-As long as eating lots of protein doesn’t keep an athlete from eating too few of the other nutrients (carbs/fats), there’s no reason to not eat a lot. And there may be benefits.

 

Essentially, a high protein intake won’t hurt an athlete (basically everything you may have read about the dangers of high protein intakes is nonsense), it may provide small benefits of importance to elite athletes…

 

 

 

I may read that differently than some people, but to me he’s basically saying “high protein intakes have little to no proven benefits, but do it anyways just in caseâ€. To me that is advice given out of fear, not logic. While I’m not saying that everyone who focuses on nutrient timing/supplementation is doing it out of anxiety, I’ve seen people that seem genuinely concerned that they waited 20 minutes after their workout before drinking their protein shake.

 

For your average fitness enthusiast I think the most important thing is finding something that motivates you and fits your lifestyle. That’s why I think the primary message to anyone who’s wondering about getting stronger should be, get a solid training program (with Foundation 1 we’re all covered there), eat a proper whole food diet, and get enough sleep. If you do that all your bases are covered, everything else is up to genetics and a little grit and determination. Then if you then want to experiment with nutrient timing to see what works better for you, play around. I do IF because I think that the research and benefits look quite promising, and since I’ve taken care to get proper training, recovery and I get all my nutrients I need within a given day, I feel I can do that.

[Joshua Naterman]

I am not a fan of McDonald, and not just because the established safe threshold is 2.8g/kg, not 3g.

 

Alan Aragon I like, and he's right. We're saying the same thing in different ways.

 

Protein is, by far, the least important nutrient to actually time if you are eating regularly. Carbs are where the magic happens, because they are what hold the potential to protect your lean mass, both throughout the day and specifically after the workout.

 

You absolutely need to be getting carbs right after the workout, even if you don't have protein with you. You can get the protein later, and honestly if you are eating whole foods, and eating good whole food mixed meals, you're pretty much always going to have amino acids releasing into your blood.

 

I don't even use whey PWO anymore, because now I always have chicken with me, but you can bet your life that I eat chicken, some kind of fast carb (often a store brand pop tart duo, but could also be rice, with lots of water), and then have a whole food meal soon thereafter. This is just following basic thermodynamic principles, which is a fancy way of saying that you need to be matching energy in with energy out, pretty much as close to real time as it is practical for you to do.

 

Alan is definitely right when he says that protein timing is the least important thing to worry about, and he's also right that the "anabolic window" is more than large enough for the fitness enthusiast (and standard bodybuilder) who works out one time per day to get full recovery and growth, even if they have to wait a few hours to get the food that their bodies so desperately want to have.

 

I also think that having an intentional fast 2-4x per month, meaning every week or every other week, is probably a good idea. You have to remember that our body is made of things that last for weeks at a time (for the most part), so you probably don't have to try to stimulate autophagy via fasting more than once a week to derive the health benefits that appear to possibly come from this practice. Withholding food for 16-18 hours a few times per month isn't going to wreck your results, so if there are people who want to start doing stuff like this every so often then I don't see a good argument against it... every other day is something else again lol

 

And, again, if you're following a Leangains type protocol, I don't see any issues with that either. I do not, repeat I DO NOT, think it is optimal, but I also don't think it is going to hurt you. I am saying "leangains" instead of "IF" for a reason.

[Colin Macdonald]

Carbs are where the magic happens, because they are what hold the potential to protect your lean mass, both throughout the day and specifically after the workout.

 

There's actually a lot of quality research showing the protective effect that fasting has on lean mass. We retain fat mass specifically to keep us going during periods of fasting. If you want to get a fire going in your fireplace at home, you don't start breaking down the furniture when there's a perfectly good pile of firewood on hand. The heart is a muscle as well, for the body to prioritize it over fat for energy is tantamount to suicide. Unless you have a severe metabolic disorder; when there's fat mass and liver glycogen available lean mass is preserved during controlled periods of fasting, especially when total calorie requirement is being met for the day and done in combination with resistance training. IF research is ongoing and I'm not going to claim to have knowledge of a perfect system, but the idea of spiking or constantly sustaining insulin levels to maintain lean mass, often with six meals a day, is an artifact of body building that really needs to be put away. Here's Alan again (I have to keep grabbing these quotes from him now that I know we are both fans of his ):

 

 

The more research I review, the more I've come to find out how well-adapted the human species is to prolonged periods of zero food. There are several variants of IF, some are less conducive to typical recomp goals than others. I have come to appreciate many of the virtues of the incarnation of IF that Martin Berkhan has developed. In the past I have been highly critical of lower meal frequency, but much of that was a product of being stuck in the dogma of the mainstream curriculum. None of the 'stoking of the metabolic fire' stuff has been solidly supported by research. Now, whether IF has any *special* effects remains anecdotal. I will concede that I was incorrect about my former negatively slanted stance towards IF. " (emphasis mine)

 

 

Way more research needs to be done, but the basic biological principles are there, we just need a better idea of how they play out in vivo. The blessing and curse of IF research is that it's highly resistant to commercial bias. Unlike drugs and bcaas, nobody can sell fasting aside from a few authors. But that also means there's a far, far smaller pool of resources available to fund the research.

 

The one day, once a week fasting model is what Brad Pilon recommends, and it may be just as effecting. But I find a 16/8 fast works better with my lifestyle, though I don't really do lean gains since I don't do carb cycling and I don't take bcaas. I've considered taking them, but once again I think that's a recommendation made more out of fear and anxiety, not current scientific knowledge. Though I keep an eye out to see if there's something convincing to prove me wrong (which is why I like conversations like this, it forces me to go back and review to see if I'm missing anything). I think that alternate day fasting has great potential for people who are looking to lose significant weight, but I'm uncertain as to how well it would work with a rigorous training program. Like you said, it's probably better avoided. 

[Tristan Curtis]

. People I know gasp and shake their head when I tell them that I plan on reaching my GST goals in four or five years.

 

I know what you mean... It sounds gruelling when you talk about 4-5 year goals. But what I love most about this program is all the different variety of development exercises, and all the milestones you reach as you move along. I think people glaz over at 'five years', but would never appreciate how much variety, excitement, development and satisfaction has come in that time.