Achieving Form before Progressing

Steve Sisk said:

Foundation 1 has cured me of the fear of lingering on an exercise or given volume.  I've yet to regret my decision to hold back and iron out.  In fact, when I stay with something to fix one issue, I often find two or three other points that could be improved.  

 

I'm also overwhelmed by the amount of insight provided by senior members on the board, as well as the generosity with which they dispense their help.  I hate to add a flowery addendum to every post about how much I love it here, but this really is just a magnificent community.  

Me too 100% agree.

Jwalker:

Like Hari suggested, you post a video and ask for help.

Right now you are kind of overthinking things. We cannot help you perform better until you start performing, period. In other words, until you get a few weeks under your belt and then post a video for critique in the F1 forum, there is nothing for any of us to do except wait a few weeks and watch your video.

It's time to stop dipping your toes in the water and start swimming. At first things may be awkward, but they will get better. It takes several weeks of consistent physical practice to start gaining control of the movements. Nothing any of us post can change that.

Thanks Josh i did start i just want to make sure i understand how to do it correctly

It seems that there are different methods to work on the form.

First method seems to be repeating whatever you can do in correct form until you get the benchmark your working on, with just somehow deloading every 4 weeks.

Another is working in micro cycles so that the same cycle is started again each time if you can't work it through.

Funnily enough the shaking thread seems to hold a third idea for this. It seems that people there are finding it a good way to first work through the whole cycle (whole 12 weeks) and then eliminate the shaking by steady state training.

The reason i'm wondering this is that somehow I find the FL/PE1 week 1 quite easy to hold, except that the shaking starts almost immediately. In fact i think i might be able to hold even the mastery level 5x60s, but of course with shaking. What i was wondering is that what should i do if i can complete basically anything in pure form (in this case without shaking). Basically only the shaking threads push forwards and consolidate later approach seems to speak about this.

Or maybe shaking isn't "impure" form?

hukka said:

It seems that there are different methods to work on the form.

 

First method seems to be repeating whatever you can do in correct form until you get the benchmark your working on, with just somehow deloading every 4 weeks.

 

Another is working in micro cycles so that the same cycle is started again each time if you can't work it through.

 

Funnily enough the shaking thread seems to hold a third idea for this. It seems that people there are finding it a good way to first work through the whole cycle (whole 12 weeks) and then eliminate the shaking by steady state training.

 

The reason i'm wondering this is that somehow I find the FL/PE1 week 1 quite easy to hold, except that the shaking starts almost immediately. In fact i think i might be able to hold even the mastery level 5x60s, but of course with shaking. What i was wondering is that what should i do if i can complete basically anything in pure form (in this case without shaking). Basically only the shaking threads push forwards and consolidate later approach seems to speak about this.

 

Or maybe shaking isn't "impure" form?

If you're shaking with good form, then your form is good but your strength has not reached mastery status yet. You need to master good form to proceed onwards.

jwalker497 said:

Thanks Josh i did start i just want to make sure i understand how to do it correctly

Great!

I know you have some questions, and the best thing to do is to video a set now, and then video a set in two weeks, and post them for us to take a look at in the F1 forum.

Joshua Naterman said:

If you're shaking with good form, then your form is good but your strength has not reached mastery status yet. You need to master good form to proceed onwards.

Ok that's what i thought. The problem i have is should i proceed with the benchmarks or stay with the week 1? (as i said i'm not even able to do that without shaking, not actually even few seconds of static hold).

As i read it it has been stated that you shouldn't do the exercises if not able to do them in pure fashion. Yet it seems that i'm unable at all to perform then FL/PE1 without shaking, even tho i can do quite a lot of it with the shaking. For these first 4 weeks I've just stubbornly stayed in the first weeks set of 3x12s (with deload of 3x6s), should i actually push for more/longer sets or just stay with the first one. Or maybe do something else as even the 3x6s had the shaking in it (and yes it starts almost immediately)

I am curious about this as well, my FL/PE1 has me shaking quite early in the set even though I can still hold perfect form.

I think the test is simple, if you keep pushing through, shaking be damned, and find that each week the shaking begins later than before then you are getting stronger. If the shaking doesn't start later in the set it is a good indication you aren't doing yourself much good.

I personally did not find that pushing through the shaking was all that beneficial, and actually was more taxing to my recovery than I would have liked. So I have backed off on the ROM and spent the time building strength in a range where I was not shaking ... at least not near as much, occasionally during a set I would start to shake, but a slight change in breathing could often fix those moments.

- Chris

chobbs said:

I think the test is simple, if you keep pushing through, shaking be damned, and find that each week the shaking begins later than before then you are getting stronger. If the shaking doesn't start later in the set it is a good indication you aren't doing yourself much good.

 

I personally did not find that pushing through the shaking was all that beneficial, and actually was more taxing to my recovery than I would have liked. So I have backed off on the ROM and spent the time building strength in a range where I was not shaking ... at least not near as much, occasionally during a set I would start to shake, but a slight change in breathing could often fix those moments.

 

- Chris

I found the opposite with FL/PE6; I was comfortable with 5x60s but realised when someone posted about it that some shaking was occurring. From there I went to performing the hold with more tension, and over the course of a month (as in, a 4 week 'cycle' at 5x60) the shaking dissipated. Now I perform a 60s hold in warmup and it's pretty steady.

It strikes me as a case of having the strength but it still being a bit too taxing on the nervous system to implement that strength efficiently. My gut feeling is that I this approach, staying within the bounds of my strength per se and maintaining the length of the holds, shifted the focus to more CNS conditioning.

I guess what's better for any one person probably depends on how taxing they find the hold and how severe the shaking is.

Charm said:

I found the opposite with FL/PE6; I was comfortable with 5x60s but realised when someone posted about it that some shaking was occurring. From there I went to performing the hold with more tension, and over the course of a month (as in, a 4 week 'cycle' at 5x60) the shaking dissipated. Now I perform a 60s hold in warmup and it's pretty steady.

So did you find as I mentioned the shaking began later in the set each week, or did it just all of the sudden go away after 4 weeks?

- Chris

I agree. For mastery, it is important that you are not shaking at all for at least the first 2-3 sets.

The last two sets might be a bit of a challenge, but you should be able to maintain them with perfect form. This is something that YOU will have to be aware of, as losing form can be as simple as losing some of the pressure on the lower back.

However, when developing the exercise TOWARDS mastery, use your best judgement. As your shaking starts to fade away, you are becoming more efficient and wasting less energy, and that will contribute to your endurance. At the same time, by not pushing super hard all the time you will be building your endurance without flirting with overtraining, so keep that in mind.

chobbs said:

So did you find as I mentioned the shaking began later in the set each week, or did it just all of the sudden go away after 4 weeks?

 

- Chris

Mm, I didn't really monitor that each time, it was more a case of once it started, I thought "Oh well, guess I'm doing it for another session."

IIRC I tested it again after the deload and had no trouble with it.

gohei_ said:

... I am curious about this as well, my FL/PE1 has me shaking quite early in the set even though I can still hold perfect form ...

If you are shaking, it is not perfect form.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I also shake a bit during HBH (especially in the beginning of the first one or two sets) but it doesn't interfere with my performance at all. The shaking does not increase towards the end of the set and it does not seem to correlate to fatigue or whatever.

I suspect that this may have to do with the fact that I just lie down and do the exercise without warm-up - I can imagine that your muscles need to adjust a little to the sudden tension. I may be wrong!

Charm said:

Mm, I didn't really monitor that each time, it was more a case of once it started, I thought "Oh well, guess I'm doing it for another session."

IIRC I tested it again after the deload and had no trouble with it.

Might be worth it next time to take note. I still maintain that if you are progressing in how long before the shaking starts then it is probably fine to suffer through it since you are progressing. If you do it for weeks with no change then maybe you are pushing it too hard and that is a clue to do something different.

- Chris

chobbs said:

If you do it for weeks with no change then maybe you are pushing it too hard and that is a clue to do something different.

 

- Chris

I know you weren't referring to anything I said but in my case, the shaking I experience still occurs almost immediately (especially in the first one or two sets) while my HBH steadily improved to the current 5x36s - I definitely got stronger in the position and do not feel like I'm pushing too hard. Weird.

chobbs said:

Might be worth it next time to take note. I still maintain that if you are progressing in how long before the shaking starts then it is probably fine to suffer through it since you are progressing. If you do it for weeks with no change then maybe you are pushing it too hard and that is a clue to do something different.

 

- Chris

Will if I get the chance; there aren't many holds quite that long past F1, next one is MNSE1. Will keep an eye on it if/when shaking begins.

Michaël said:

I know you weren't referring to anything I said but in my case, the shaking I experience still occurs almost immediately (especially in the first one or two sets) while my HBH steadily improved to the current 5x36s - I definitely got stronger in the position and do not feel like I'm pushing too hard. Weird.

If it's not cutting into your recovery then maybe your position is more like mine. As long as you don't find it draining on your muscles, then imo it'll come under control in time, although it could be that it's quicker to focus on working up the time before shaking begins. Not sure which'll sort it out faster.

Michaël said:

I also shake a bit during HBH (especially in the beginning of the first one or two sets) but it doesn't interfere with my performance at all. The shaking does not increase towards the end of the set and it does not seem to correlate to fatigue or whatever.

 

I suspect that this may have to do with the fact that I just lie down and do the exercise without warm-up - I can imagine that your muscles need to adjust a little to the sudden tension. I may be wrong!

This sounds exactly like me. I have no trouble to hold the sets, but the shaking starts immediately. The shaking feels mainly a bit funny. In addition i remember one time that in the third set i was able to eliminate it for some time.

I'ts like these exercises are quite easy, but don't seem to find any way to eliminate the shaking at all. It might be possible to do the same exercise with limited ROM tho, haven't tested. If so should i first try to expand the ROM until i get it better or push for more extended periods with lesser ROM?

Michaël said:

I know you weren't referring to anything I said but in my case, the shaking I experience still occurs almost immediately (especially in the first one or two sets) while my HBH steadily improved to the current 5x36s - I definitely got stronger in the position and do not feel like I'm pushing too hard. Weird.

I think there are various reasons for shaking. That you indicate it is especially pronounced in the first couple sets then perhaps your situation would be alleviated with a different warmup.

Charm said:

Will if I get the chance; there aren't many holds quite that long past F1, next one is MNSE1. Will keep an eye on it if/when shaking begins.

 

If it's not cutting into your recovery then maybe your position is more like mine. As long as you don't find it draining on your muscles, then imo it'll come under control in time, although it could be that it's quicker to focus on working up the time before shaking begins. Not sure which'll sort it out faster.

A lot of this is a big unknown. As Coach hasn't responded with a "nope, do it this way" type response I take it to mean there are a variety of ways to approach this and as long as we are getting in the work it will come under control in time.

Would love to know the most efficient method of dealing with it, but I think we might be out of luck aside from experimenting with our own body as the situation arises.

- Chris

chobbs said:

 

Would love to know the most efficient method of dealing with it, but I think we might be out of luck aside from experimenting with our own body as the situation arises.

 

- Chris

Meanwhile we can spend countless very enjoyable hours analyzing this over the net (i find this very tempting especially as it is my deload week currently and i need something to alleviate my aching need for more training)

Eh, we're training for the same goals, not producing clones. No doubt some things work a little better for me that won't for others, and vice versa, depending on our assorted strengths and weaknesses. These sort of details probably aren't going to make much difference, the point of it after all is the same benchmark exercise. It'll all even out in the wash~

Charm said:

Eh, we're training for the same goals, not producing clones. No doubt some things work a little better for me that won't for others, and vice versa, depending on our assorted strengths and weaknesses. These sort of details probably aren't going to make much difference, the point of it after all is the same benchmark exercise. It'll all even out in the wash~

Good reminder. My mind works far too engineer way in this. Got to find the most efficient thing

hukka said:

Good reminder. My mind works far too engineer way in this. Got to find the most efficient thing

Which is also a good thing allowing for human variance doesn't invalidate principles.

There seem to be several methods and interpretations on this issue and a few others ive seen such as volume/cycling, reps, shaking, etc

Perhaps the coach or his team can clarify some of these questions?

What we really need is some evaluation method to coincide with the workout scheduler/generator. You submit you workout its evaluated and judged and then a new weekly or monthly workout is created with specific cycle programming. But the key aspect is evaluation. I think that is the teal issue. We don't know what good form is or how much shaking too much or if our ROM would call for an increase in volume.

jwalker497 said:

There seem to be several methods and interpretations on this issue and a few others ive seen such as volume/cycling, reps, shaking, etc

Perhaps the coach or his team can clarify some of these questions?

What we really need is some evaluation method to coincide with the workout scheduler/generator. You submit you workout its evaluated and judged and then a new weekly or monthly workout is created with specific cycle programming. But the key aspect is evaluation. I think that is the teal issue. We don't know what good form is or how much shaking too much or if our ROM would call for an increase in volume.

- Any discussion about volume/cycling is in a very limited and short-term instance.

- We do have the courses themselves as our primary references of good form.

- Something like official shorter term evaluation might be available, if the people power happened to be available, for a fee, once people begin certifying, but frankly I wouldn't hold your breath. Everyone qualified to put out official word works kind of long hours, hence the community of peers to help where we can. If you post videos someone will generally help where they can; plenty of people can attest to videos helping them pick holes in performance, and I've picked up some good pointers this way.