Achieving Form before Progressing

If one has difficulty mastering a given move in the beginning due to strength and/or flexibility deficits (e.g. with SLE/PE1), is it proper to linger on a particular time/set scheme until proper form is achieved before increasing the time?

For example, with Arch Body Holds, I've found that 12sec is a happy medium where I can push myself towards the movement ideals the entire time while also getting a decent volume in.  When I've gone further in the time progressions, I've found the my form falls even shorter from ideal.  I've decided to hang out at 5X12sec for several weeks to consolidate my form before moving forward.  Is this appropriate?

Yes. You shouldn't move forward to the next benchmark until you are fairly positive that your form can't get better.

Thank you Josh.  This forum is such an awesome resource.  Near-immediate feedback that's almost always on point.  Two nagging training issues have been cleared up in the space of a couple hours this afternoon alone!

To add to that question, you should still do the recomended cycles, correct?  Work up and then Deload, repeat until you can master the Exercise/Mobility pair.

Jwalker-

What I've been doing (and what I think is the generally recommendation) is to repeat a week as many times as needed, but to deload in some manner every 4th week.  If I'm stuck at the first week of a cycle, I'll generally use the deload week from the week before, since that's generally closer to 50% volume of what I've actually been doing (week 1) than the deload weeks of subsequent cycles.

In case that was confusing, If  I'm stuck at week 1 of cycle two for 3 weeks, on the 4th week I'll do the deload from cycle one (the first 4 week cycle).  

Someone please correct me if this isn't the best way to go.

Yes it is. Deload is a must, it doesn't matter how many microcycles you've done.

I'm on the same boat with SL/PE1; continuous microcycles 1-4 weeks in order to achieve the proper ROM and maintain it.

It has to be like this.

Something to remember is that you should never be spending time exercising incorrectly, so if you fail on week 2 you will simply perform whatever you are capable of performing perfectly for the rest of week 2 and week 3, and week 4 will be the deload as usual. You will then start back on week 1, and work back through the weeks again until you achieve everything through week 4. This may take several runs through, but you will see progress each time.

Real strength development can be a slow, steady process, but it takes you a very, very long way when you stick with it.

Joshua Naterman said:

Real strength development can be a slow, steady process, but it takes you a very, very long way when you stick with it.

It's rarely steady. Strength development is often plagued by plateaus. 

Hari_Seldon said:

It's rarely steady. Strength development is often plagued by plateaus. 

When working gymnastic strength, "plateaus" appear because you are continuing to get stronger, but have reached a point where it takes a whole lot of strength increase to further alter the position

You're still getting stronger, it just takes a long time to build the strength it takes to make visible strides forward.

That's a good point though, you have to be mentally prepared to do the same thing over and over, sometimes for months, while form improves and the effort that it takes slowly diminishes. Then, one day, you will find that you can do something a bit more difficult... and the process repeats.

I think the best part of the Foundation work is that you don't miss anything, so if the program is being followed to the letter we shouldn't see very many (if any) people plateauing because of an under-developed muscle group.

Hari_Seldon said:

It's rarely steady. Strength development is often plagued by plateaus. 

I disagree to some extent. If you only look at progress in terms of weight lifted, or new movements mastered then perhaps it is a plateau. But I feel that every session you have there should be an improvement - new weight or movement PR, total reps PR, or amount of time to complete the same reps PR (aka intensity, volume, density) ... there is also the sometimes less tangible PRs of smoother movement or better ROM. There are lots of ways to improve and all of them are steps to where we want to get to.

- Chris

Joshua Naterman said:

Something to remember is that you should never be spending time exercising incorrectly, so if you fail on week 2 you will simply perform whatever you are capable of performing perfectly for the rest of week 2 and week 3, and week 4 will be the deload as usual. You will then start back on week 1, and work back through the weeks again until you achieve everything through week 4. This may take several runs through, but you will see progress each time.

 

Real strength development can be a slow, steady process, but it takes you a very, very long way when you stick with it.

What if, say, you fail on day 1 of Week 5? Wouldn't it make sense to immediately restart Week 1 at the next session because you couldn't handle the jump in volume yet?

Joshua Naterman said:

When working gymnastic strength, "plateaus" appear because you are continuing to get stronger, but have reached a point where it takes a whole lot of strength increase to further alter the position

 

You're still getting stronger, it just takes a long time to build the strength it takes to make visible strides forward.

 

That's a good point though, you have to be mentally prepared to do the same thing over and over, sometimes for months, while form improves and the effort that it takes slowly diminishes. Then, one day, you will find that you can do something a bit more difficult... and the process repeats.

 

 

Yeah, this is an important distinction to make. It's rare to be in a position where you're putting in good work and not making any actual  progress. But often the progress is not visible. 

Something you don't realize is that the same thing is happening.

The modern world is out of touch with how strength was build 100 years ago. Do you know why the old weights were globes? Because they were hollow. You filled them with lead shot, one teaspoon at a time or less. Most days you would add a small amount of lead, perhaps 1/4 teaspoon, to each side. Maybe more. The idea was to never, ever make a jump in weight that would be too much for your muscles to handle.

The old-timers understood that you can only build strength at a certain rate, but that it IS steady. Science supports this, since we KNOW you can only build a certain amount of muscle per month. Once you're where I'm at, if you're lucky it is 1 lb per month, but usually it is less than that. Now, spread that out over an entire body. It's not very much, and doesn't add a huge amount of strength to any one muscle, but it DOES add some.

If that added strength isn't enough to get an extra rep, or to go up 5 lbs (which is quite the jump in weight, really), then you appear to have plateau'd. Eventually you do build what you need, and you move on to the next "plateau."

It is often due to feedback systems in the body: Our larger muscles are quite powerful, but the smaller supporting muscles often reach their limits first, and that's with good form. So, you may get your pecs strong enough to bench more, but perhaps subscapularis needs more time to grow stronger. It is not always going to happen at the same time. See what I mean?

I am a somewhat technically-minded person, but I strongly believe that having a good grasp on the underlying concepts that make "plateau's" occur allows one to understand why it is ok to plateau, and why trying to push past it (as opposed to allowing your body to continue adapting at it's own rate) generally leads to bad form and injury.

Edit: I used bench press as an example simply because it is something that nearly everyone is familiar with, but the exact same concept applies to GST.

So back to the cycles, lets assume I struggle for all of the begining exercises.  I still go through the cycles and increase volume and deload.  I do that regardless of how "well" i am able to perform the exercise.  Correct?

If you struggle to complete week 1 reps I don't recommend moving on in volume. Form will just get worse in that case. In that scenario it makes the most sense to repeat week 1 as your week 2, and then if it is a success you do week 2 on week 3, and if not you repeat week 1 again as your week 3. Week 4 is a deload, so you cut whatever volume you managed to work up to in half and then repeat the week 1-4 micro cycle once again.

Just one way to approach it, but it seems to be the most logical while still remaining true to Coach's programming. Another way to think of it is that you move on to week 2, but just be sure to stop your set when you form breaks - this might be good if you wanted to eke out every possible rep within your current limits. I recommend the former approach though since I think it is too easy to drop into "push" yourself mode with the latter approach and that usually ends in some type of compensation so you can get the numbers. I think a person is better off training within their limits and the latter approach makes it a lot easier to cross that line.

What isn't clear is whether we would be better off just repeating the 1-4 week cycle until full ROM is reached (for example with the ABH), or if it is better to move further along in the cycles and drop back later on. I suppose it depends on how quickly new ROM is developed. One way to know is when your hold times suddenly decrease significantly - either you are way over trained or your body has some new ROM and you need to drop back the cycle.

- Chris

Joshua Naterman said:

(...) why the old weights were globes? Because they were hollow. You filled them with lead shot, one teaspoon at a time or less. Most days you would add a small amount of lead, perhaps 1/4 teaspoon, to each side. Maybe more. The idea was to never, ever make a jump in weight that would be too much for your muscles to handle (...)

I did not know that, very interesting stuff Joshua, thanks

jwalker497 said:

So back to the cycles, lets assume I struggle for all of the begining exercises.  I still go through the cycles and increase volume and deload.  I do that regardless of how "well" i am able to perform the exercise.  Correct?

Yes, in the sense that you will finish the microcycle you're in and try to make the best out of it, and then 'rinse and repeat'. For example, I got in trouble during weeks 5-9 doing HBP/PE2. The jump from 4x6 reps to 4x9 reps (and 5x9 reps!) was simply too much for me. What I did was sticking to the prescribed number of sets and reps but only doing as many good reps as I could. So when I was supposed to do 4x9 reps I did 3x9 + 1x6 reps (all I could do with correct form and tempo), and the following week (when I was supposed to do 5x9 reps) I did 3x9, 1x6 and 1x4. After deload week, I will repeat the whole microcycle and hopefully increase my number of good reps. Eventually, I'll get them all and move on to the final microcycle for this exercise.

I hope this makes sense

*edit: I see that opinions vary and both approaches are probably valid but for me, trying to stick to a full microcycle's worth of programming (and repeating this as necessary) feels better - I noticed that my total number of reps did continue to increase, just not at the rate that the programming demanded.

Michaël said:

*edit: I see that opinions vary and both approaches are probably valid but for me, trying to stick to a full microcycle's worth of programming (and repeating this as necessary) feels better - I noticed that my total number of reps did continue to increase, just not at the rate that the programming demanded.

I think your approach is just fine as long as one can be observant and detached enough to stop when form/tempo breaks down. I simply error on the side of caution knowing full well that if I push harder that I am simply over taxing my already limited recovery ability, and my type A personaility dictates that I usually push harder rather than not.

- Chris

Joshua Naterman said:

Yes. You shouldn't move forward to the next benchmark until you are fairly positive that your form can't get better.

So let me post an example to clarify.  I start FL/PE1 and the iM on day 1.  I am terrible at it, I continue to do this exercise following the RXd cycle, increasing volume, then deload.  I am still terrible (at either the PE or the iM or Both) so I repeat the process.  After say 4 weeks, I decide I am making no progress, what do I do?

jwalker497 said:

So let me post an example to clarify.  I start FL/PE1 and the iM on day 1.  I am terrible at it, I continue to do this exercise following the RXd cycle, increasing volume, then deload.  I am still terrible (at either the PE or the iM or Both) so I repeat the process.  After say 4 weeks, I decide I am making no progress, what do I do?

Post a video of you performing the exercise and ask for help.

These are not terrifically complex exercises. If you're practicing them consistently by following the schedule and making sure to focus on good form and tempo, you will get better. 

If there is one thing I've learned the hard way (through injuries, mobility issues etc.) it is that more is not better. Getting a movement done right is far more beneficial than doing many movements wrong. Just saying.

Im not talking about doing the move right, I am talking about lacking the flxeibility/mobility to complete the exercise as demonstrated or instructed

I don't think there has been an established approach because I think it really depends.

Let's use the ABH as an example ... because it is a frequent cause of this scenario.

I would say that if you have new ROM and it is suddenly more difficult because of that improvement then it is worth dropping back.

If you don't have new ROM yet then I would keep moving forward because I don't believe that limiting yourself, to weeks 1-4 for example, is useful. Might as well progress in strength in the ROM you have and then, when there is improvement to the ROM, drop back and strengthen that new range up again.

Just my 2 cents.

- Chris

Thankyou for this thread

There are some real gems scattered through these posts which hit upon thoughts that we probably all have as we repeat the same low level exercises again and again.

I do find it strengthens my resolve to be reminded of why I am following a particular path and not gravitating to the shiny new things.

Some points simply need to be repeated over and over on a regular basis

Foundation 1 has cured me of the fear of lingering on an exercise or given volume.  I've yet to regret my decision to hold back and iron out.  In fact, when I stay with something to fix one issue, I often find two or three other points that could be improved.  

I'm also overwhelmed by the amount of insight provided by senior members on the board, as well as the generosity with which they dispense their help.  I hate to add a flowery addendum to every post about how much I love it here, but this really is just a magnificent community.