Whey Protein and Meal Substitute...

[Marcos Mocine-McQueen]

I'd like to get some opinions on using whey as a substitute for a mid-morning snack.

 

While hypertrophy isn't my primary goal, I'd like to enjoy as much of it as I can. Since I'm putting in the work I might as well enjoy as much of the fruit as possible.

 

 When I lived the the U.S. of A. I had a very flexible work situation that allowed me to prepare and eat food almost whenever I chose. I could easily get whole foods every 5-6 hours. The social norms and working situation have changed for me since moving to Japan. It's fairly easy for me to get 3 well-balanced and whole food meals every day here. I prepare my own breakfast and diner and the lunches at the school at which I work are actually fantastic... they're cooked from scratch and include local fruits and vegetables as well as diverse sources of protein.

 

The lunches, and even my breakfasts, though offer only middling amounts of protein (20-30 grams).

 

I consume a high-carb protein (40 grams ish) shake mid afternoon before, during and after my workout.

 

I'd like to eat a mid-morning morning snack, but eating at my desk in the middle of an office of 40 people is frowned upon. It's impolite and I intend to respect the sense of manners here. Drinking, however, is perfectly fine.

 

What do you all think of using a protein shake as a substitute for real food? With the exception of workout time I've always tried to limit my meals to real food but in my current situation the choice is between a liquid or nothing at all. What are the potential downsides? 

 

If it's OK, what should I mix it with (water, milk?). Also, need I look for any particular qualities in this protein (unflavored, no sugar added, etc...).

 

[Larry Roseman]

It seems like you're currently getting between 100-120g. That's enough for someone weighing

70-80kg based on 1.5g/kg  and training for some hypertrophy. What's your bodyweight, and

total calories? Japanese food is pretty low calorie isn't it?

 

Sometimes we just need more calories and if drinking protein is a way to get it, it's fine,

providing the whole foods that we are eating cover our macro and essential micro nutrient bases.

[Joshua Naterman]

in this situation, a drink is to be preferred, but whey is not going to do you as much good as casein or a milk protein isolate. You want slow proteins for meal replacements.

[Marcos Mocine-McQueen]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

 

 

It seems like you're currently getting between 100-120g. That's enough for someone weighing

70-80kg based on 1.5g/kg  and training for some hypertrophy. What's your bodyweight, and

total calories? Japanese food is pretty low calorie isn't it?

I weigh around 73/74 kg (metric is something I've had to get used to). That's down from around 80 kg. I'd say most of the weight loss was good but I certainly lost some muscle, which I'd like to slowly rebuild in a lean fashion. As for total calories, I'd say that in general you're correct. Rice plays a huge role in almost every meal which helps to boost the calorie count but as most of it is white rice it's pretty empty. Portion sizes here are also much smaller good for overall health but not so good for a training diet. So while the rice is pretty chocked full of calories, the diet is pretty low calorie when taken as a whole.

 

in this situation, a drink is to be preferred, but whey is not going to do you as much good as casein or a milk protein isolate. You want slow proteins for meal replacements.

Thanks. I'm making a trip from my village into the nearest city this weekend and I think I can get some other types of protein there. I'll stock up. This was exactly the kind of thing I was wondering. I figured that slower would be better (hence my milk thought) but hadn't thought of the much simpler approach; use a slower protein.

[Larry Roseman]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

 

 

I weigh around 73/74 kg (metric is something I've had to get used to). That's down from around 80 kg. I'd say most of the weight loss was good but I certainly lost some muscle, which I'd like to slowly rebuild in a lean fashion. As for total calories, I'd say that in general you're correct. Rice plays a huge role in almost every meal which helps to boost the calorie count but as most of it is white rice it's pretty empty. Portion sizes here are also much smaller good for overall health but not so good for a training diet. So while the rice is pretty chocked full of calories, the diet is pretty low calorie when taken as a whole.

 

Thanks. I'm making a trip from my village into the nearest city this weekend and I think I can get some other types of protein there. I'll stock up. This was exactly the kind of thing I was wondering. I figured that slower would be better (hence my milk thought) but hadn't thought of the much simpler approach; use a slower protein.

#1 is getting enough calories regardless of source. You have basically enough protein with or without the additional shake. If you can't get enough calories casien does tend to limit muscle protein breakdown (MPB) while in a deficit, though it isn't always tasty and costs more.  Whey does increase MPS (synthesis) more however. You could have milk, chocolate milk, whey with milk to get both types, which is ideal for MPS and minimizing MPB. - best of both worlds.   

[Joel Tomkins]

I'm in a similar situation (and weight - 73.7kg this morning), where it is not always possible to eat regularly at work and when it is, nutritious food is not always available. To try and increase my caloric intake I'm consuming about a litre of milk (roughly 700 calories) throughout the day on top of my normal meals and snacks. I am hoping this should be keeping my body from breaking down muscle. So far it's been a couple of weeks and I'm starting to see gains on the scales. Time will tell if it is fat or muscle though! 

[Klaudius Petrulis]

Time will tell if it is fat or muscle though! 

Probably both

[Marcos Mocine-McQueen]

As per your recommendations I've ordered a decent quality casein protein. What's the best way to consume this? With water, with milk, with a juice, in a more complex smoothie?

 

Before asking I did attempt to research this on my own but turned up a dearth of studies. I guess this means that perhaps there is no solid recommendation.

 

Can anyone here point me to solid research or, baring that, offer an educated suggestion?

[Daniel Burnham]

Depends on what other macros you want. Juice is definitely not something I would mix it with. Choose milk of you need carbs and extra calories from the fat.

[Aaro Helander]

Wouldn't some unique features of whey make it a better solution for micellar casein in case of being able to take it frequently enough?

 

Just read the free kindle version of Will Brink's Fifty Shades of Whey, and there seems to be some very unique attributes to whey concentrates when compared to others.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-of-Whey-ebook/dp/B008RANHYG

[Joshua Naterman]

I've done this for extended periods of time, and I can tell you that it is a giant pain in the ass.

 

Is there a benefit? Sure, in some ways. Absorption is faster, so you reach a higher peak of protein synthesis, and you do have certain immune factors that are in abundance, but it is not fun to live your life by an alarm clock. In practical terms, for a long term solution, whey is not all that reasonable for this application.

[Graig Alpert]

Is anyone else concerned about the hormones in this stuff? Speculation and hearsay to follow. I read that *** hormones like estrogen & progesterone are present in fat and growth hormone (if any) & IGF is in protein of dairy-derived products. I believe these are present in much higher concentrations in milk than in whey. Some people say the amounts in whey are negligible but I think the IGF & growth hormones are primarily responsible for gains people experience from long-term use.

 

I cut out all dairy products a year ago and I feel great. I don't take any supplements (very expensive decision) and my performance is constantly improving.

[Larry Roseman]

IGf and HGH in amounts found in food have no perceptible influence on muscle growth. 

 

The last whey I got is the New Zealand Grass Fed variety. It was the same price as the

usual blend I get. It is the 322 concentrate but still 5% carbs and 5% fat, 80% protein.

http://www.canadianprotein.com/grass-fed-new-zealand-whey-protein-5lbs.html

Something similar should be available in the US.

 

But I agree if it's meant to be a meal replacement, then best to have some casein if it's a dairy solution.

Milk protein isolate or concentrate is another good option that Josh mentioned.

[Graig Alpert]

IGf and HGH in amounts found in food have no perceptible influence on muscle growth.

Could you link to any studies that show evidence for that? I would be interested to read them, thanks.

[Larry Roseman]

Could you link to any studies that show evidence for that? I would be interested to read them, thanks.

Here's an article with links

 

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2012/06/19/growth-hormones-in-milk-mythfact/

 

Specifically see the paragraphs:

Studies have shown that Human and bovine milk normally contain small amounts of growth hormone. After ingestion, growth hormone as any other protein in milk: it is digested into its constituent amino acids and di- and tripeptides. There is no data to suggest that BST present in milk can survive digestion or produce unique peptide fragments that might have biological effects. Even if BST is absorbed intact, the growth hormone receptors in the human do not recognize cow BST and, therefore, BST cannot produce effects in humans.

and 

 

 

IGF-1 is produced naturally and present in saliva, biliary fluid, pancreatic juice ,secretions from intestinal mucosa, liver and extrahepatic tissues. Firstly, the amount of IGF-1 consumed daily from milk products is minute compared to natural endogenous production in Human body. Secondly, IGF-1 cannot be absorbed through stomach or intestine (won’t be able to escape proteolysis during intestinal passage) and even if small amounts were absorbed by the intestine and passed to circulation, it will contribute less than 0.06% of total daily IGF-1 production. IGF-1 is not denatured by pasteurization, so consumption of milk from rBST treated dairy cows will increase the daily oral intake of IGF-1, but serum levels will not be affected due to the denaturing effect within the stomach and intestine.

 

Also there was no impact on muscle growth found when actual Human Growth Hormone was injected in a comparatively large amount as in: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/262/3/E261.short

 

However, it does seem that injected HGH increases collagen growth which can have some negative consequences: http://jp.physoc.org/content/588/3/395.full

 

In any event, drinking cow milk would not produce this effect, assuming bovine growth factor BST caused humans to grow, which it doesn't.

 

As an aside,  the GH released during resistance training is minuscule but may stimulate the muscle and tendon collagen to grow to support the myofibular protein synthesis that accompanies resistance training. 

 

[Joel Tomkins]

The last whey I got is the New Zealand Grass Fed variety. It was the same price as the

usual blend I get. It is the 322 concentrate but still 5% carbs and 5% fat, 80% protein.

http://www.canadianprotein.com/grass-fed-new-zealand-whey-protein-5lbs.html

Something similar should be available in the US.

That's basically cheaper if not the same price that we can get NZ whey here in Australia!

[Larry Roseman]

Yes seemed like a pretty good deal! There was 5% off as well. Although shipping and taxes jacked it up again.