So, this is gymnastics

Little introduction, Im a Junior in high school, 5'6ish, 130 pounds, and 5% bodyfat. Yes, 130 pounds is light, but as a freshman I was 95 pounds, was asked if I was annorexic by my doctor, and so started lifting weights to get to this point. 

Im fairly well-versed in bodybuilding style weight lifting, as well as a little strength training. I'm interested in gymnastics, because the other day some of my friends were joking around trying muscle-ups, and I surprisingly was able to do 4 consecutive kipping MUs my first time. I was impressed with myself, even though it may seem trivial to you.

My primary goal through gymnastics would be aesthetics, although strength and simply being able to perform the movements are close seconds. 

My only concert is monetary, Foundation One is 75 dollars, which I would have to really work to scrounge up, if I so decided. Not to mention, rings would be an additional 60 (I already have a doorway pullup bar). One of my friends has a copy of "Overcoming Gravity"', which I don't know if you are familiar with. It is a 500 page book, similar to Foundation One. 

If you are familiar with this book, how does Foundation One compare? Is it really worth the seventy five dollars? Also, would the money-back guarantee extend to if I tried gymnastics for a while, but simply decided it is not for me? Otherwise, I am considering using the Killroy70 workout, with help from the Overcoming Gravity book to just test-run if gymnastics at all works for me adn my schedule.

Thanks very much guys, help is appreciated.

p.s. I am a Varsity Soccer player in the fall, and currently am running Varsity Track (100 and 4x100) 5 days a week, if that affects anything.

First: Yes Foundation One is easily worth the $75.

While I've heard of Overcoming Gravity I haven't read/seen it, but I know others here have and I am just going to go ahead and speak for them and say that Foundation One is the best the market has to offer as far as Gymnastic Strength Training™ (GST).

Please read this thread for further endorsements.

Using the Killroy template + Overcoming Gravity will definitely increase your chances of becoming injured due to progressing too quickly through strength elements.  Many have done so, including myself.  With Foundation 1 you will not hurt yourself, and you will make progress much faster overall.

I believe the 30-day money back guarantee is good regardless of the reason, but I wouldn't know since I never even considered it. 

I have read most of the popular bodyweight training books. The foundation series is the best. There is nothing else published that even comes close.

I have both courses. If money is really a HUGE issue, I would say Overcoming Gravity is fine (Sorry Coach). However, the Foundation series would be the best choice if it is at all possible to get them. They are all well worth the money, mostly because they work your weak points just as much as your strong ones. This is an advantage because with OG it is very easy to only work your strong points. 

If you do end up using Overcoming Gravity, do the mobility work in between sets, as that makes a HUGE difference. But yeah. I would recommend the Foundation series above OG, however if you must, OG is useable and you can still get strong with it.

Also, rings are definitely needed. You can mount them at parks, in ceiling joists, or on your pullup bar (That's possible but not really advisable). You will need them for many of the OG and Foundation series progressions, although not so much in F1.

Thanks for the advice all, I will definitely try to get the 75 dollars together, although I think, understandably, 75 dollars is alot to spend on something I had all but never heard of a week ago.

Can anyone compare the hypertrophy and strength gains of this style program in comparison to bodybuilding weight lifting? Because hypertrophy is so important to me, I am considering throwing in maybe two weightlifting days, (which would be on top of my track practices). However, the majority of my practices are 'light days', aside from hard intervals on mondays and of course meets on wednesdays or thursdays. 

I really do appreciate the help guys, please bear with my questions, this is a new thing to me and lots (like acronyms) can be confusing!

If you work for 25 hours at $5/hour, that's enough to buy f1 and a set of rings. Foundation 1 contains about 282 hours of workout material. So the time you work to acquire the materials is not a whole lot compared to the time you'll have to work to master the materials.

That's very true. Also, if you have an opportunity to get a lot of hours you could get the package deal. It's $75 less than if you were to buy all four individually. 

Something to remember, is that Overcoming gravity was written by a man with 2-3 years of training while Coach has decades of training national champions.  What Steven Low has accomplished in that short a time is nothing short of amazing, but who do you really think knows what he's talking about more?  It's one thing to make yourself strong, something else to train hundreds of people.

Foundation 1 is designed to be the approach that works for EVERYBODY.

Also, I'm pretty sure the author is a member of this forum, so I'd like to hear his opinions.

Bipocni- fair point, the information provided by Steven Low was in-depth and fantastic, but I did notice that as the author, he himself did not have the physique that I would want to work towards. However, I do understand that this is indicative of nothing by itself (Mark Rippetoe and Starting Strength, anyone?) 

Diet is going to be a major factor in how much hypertrophy you experience. If you get your diet dialed in, I have no doubts that you will build muscle doing the Foundation program. Even after a couple of cycles, the change in my physique is noticeable. The higher volume at the lower levels of the program in particular should be well suited for hypertrophy.

That being said, the only way to have an optimal rate of hypertrophy is to do a hypertrophy specific program. Looking exclusively at muscle gain, a well designed bodybuilding program will likely be more effective than Foundation. But considering the exceptional strength and mobility that results alongside the hypertrophy from Coach Sommer's method, there is no question in my mind that the benefits far outweigh the relatively minor difference in hypertrophy rate.

If you haven't already, I recommend checking out Joshua Naterman's nutrition thread for advice on what to do for nutrition around your workout. Just getting that part of your diet right will have a big effect. Beyond that, just work on getting used to eating lots of whole food throughout the day. Drinking lots of organic whole milk is what really did the trick for me.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/4278-perfect-pre-mid-and-post-workout-nutrition/

As to the difference between Overcoming Gravity and Foundation 1, Overcoming Gravity is more of a guide on how to design your own program. It goes through different possible splits, exercises, sets, reps. It gives you everything you need to design a program for yourself, according to your goals. Foundation one, on the other hand, is a specific program that you follow, set for set and rep for rep. If you follow it religiously, it give you mastery of seven specific gymnastic strength elements. It's true that Coach Sommer has considerably more experience than Steven Low, but Overcoming Gravity is a good book, and includes a useful section on injuries. Foundation 1 is a very well put together course, and represents years of development and experimentation. Overall both books are good, depending on what your goal is. 

If you are primarily interested in hypertrophy, I would not recommend either one. It is true that if you eat right, you can pack on some weight with Foundation One but it would not be a very efficient way of going about it. If your primary goal is hypertrophy and you have access to free weights, find a good bodybuilding template and follow it. That's my opinion, but if you do decide to go with F1, I don't need to tell you it's an excellent product.

bwsaw said:

Can anyone compare the hypertrophy and strength gains of this style program in comparison to bodybuilding weight lifting? Because hypertrophy is so important to me, I am considering throwing in maybe two weightlifting days, (which would be on top of my track practices). However, the majority of my practices are 'light days', aside from hard intervals on mondays and of course meets on wednesdays or thursdays. 

As others have already said, you're going to see more hypertrophy, faster, from a well put-together bodybuilding routine. The tradeoff with Gymnastic Strength Training™ is that it'll take longer to build your physique, and you might not get quite as large as you could have from weights, but you'll develop much better kinesthetic intelligence. Or put more simply, you get better at moving your body.  This body awareness carries over to a very wide range of sports and skills. 

If you have to sell your mom's tv get F1 you will not regret it !

Although your mom might be a little mad

It will save you so much time in the long run

I'm just kidding don't sell your moms tv unless you ask her first!

bwsaw,

Since others have covered the differences between Overcoming Gravity and the Foundation Series I would like to give you a word of advice as someone who should've taken strength training more seriously when I was younger. If I were given the chance to start over again from when I was a teenager and I knew what I know now I would've trained by first working toward the fundamentals of gymnastic training(the sort of thing you'll find in the Foundation Series), then moved on to maximal weight training(Ripetoe's stuff, 5x5, etc.), then muscle building for aesthetics.

The reason for this is that with gymnastic training you have a prime opportunity to increase your kinesthetic intelligence as Hari brought up. As well as find and fix weak spots that would normally come in the form of muscluar imbalance and end in injury. The nature of gymnastic training forces these things to be worked out assuming you are training in an intelligent way. The Foundation Series provides that method very well.

I would integrate the big lifts(specifically deadlifts and squats) after that for a few reasons. Using barbell training for the posterior chain and legs is very efficient when it comes to building muscular strength as well as size. Though bodyweight training could easily be argued to provide a better basis for explosive strength through plyometric training. Plus, the deadlift is frankly the best weight lifting exercise you could possibly do in my opinion. Done correctly, it trains every major muscle throughout the trunk while also being one of the most basic movements you could ever do and is invaluable for that reason.

Side note, while gymnasts have very strong legs you'll notice they tend to have less mass on the lower body than the upper. My understanding is that a lot of leg mass becomes problematic considering the extra weight it would result in makes the more upper body dominant skills more difficult, which would lead to the use of plyometric and single leg strength exercises for gymnists since it tends to result in more muscular strength than muscular size.

After achieving basic gymnastic fundamentals and intermediate to advanced lifts(benchmarks for your size are available online) on the maximal lifts I would move onto integrating Bodybuilding style workouts if and only if I wanted to achieve the full spectrum of aesthetics that is the primary goal of Bodybuilding.

That said, you could look pretty damn good from gymnastics and heavy lower body and posterior chain lifts alone assuming you kept your calories in check. You may not end up with the biggest guns in the gym, but you'll be strong as hell and look good.

Thanks very much for all the input guys, I really do appreciate all the help alot.

To answer the fundamental question first: Is Foundation 1 worth the cost? Absolutely... Every. Single. Penny.

Now, I will commit heresy. I'm not sure it's the right program for you given your goals, sports involvement and schedule. I say this as someone who loves F1, who comes from a track background and who lifted weights for the very reasons you give. I strongly urge you to ask yourself if you're ready to give it a real try. If you are, F1 is well worth the money, many times over. I question you readiness, however, based on a few things you wrote and the bias of my own experiences. This isn't an insult in any way. It's just that given your schedule, activities and goals I'm not sure this is the best time in your life to tackle F1.

I came from a track and field background which while it doesn't make me an expert might offer me some understanding of your situation. I was a high school and collegiate hurdler and hold a few USATF coaching certs.

Looking back on my own sprinting days one of my few regrets is that I didn't discover the weight room until after I finished running. I gained a great deal of explosive power, improved posture and an overall strength that would have greatly improved my hurdling. While the benefits of increased leg muscle (along with strength) is obvious, the increase in upper body awareness and strength is also valuable. I found myself becoming a better sprinter after leaving college and taking up weight lifting.

That's an odd thing to be writing given the forum we're in, but I would hate for you to try gymnastics before you're ready to really give it it's fair due. I now rarely lift weights (in fact, I've cut it out totally while I work through F1). I love GST. Several years ago, however, I had neither the maturity nor time needed to appreciate GST and specifically F1, which is an outstanding program. I feel you are likely in that same place.

One of your stated goals is hypertrophy. You want the muscles for the ladies (a biased assumption, I'll admit). There's nothing wrong with this at all. It's what originally got me into the weight room and without that I never would have discovered gst. While F1 with a good diet will cause hypertrophy, a well designed lifting program with proper diet will get you there faster. 

You're very light for a sprinter. This isn't a deal breaker, and there are certainly successful light sprinters out there. It's good, however, to ask why sprinters tend to be second only to throwers in terms of muscle mass. I'm not talking about steroid users, I'm talking regular sprinters. Even those who aren't very familiar with the weight room tend to be a bit more muscular that many other athletes. While I no longer understand the adaptive processes enough to give you a thorough explanation I will simply say that just like gymnasts, sprinters develop the body that best serves their specific sport. I suspect that if you were to increase your caloric and protein intakes you would be amazed at the hypertrophy.

You also have a full schedule between track and soccer and weightlifting. I have doubts about whether you have the time to dedicate to F1. Remember, the program demands mastery. Are you willing to take the time to learn the movements and exercises perfectly? Do you have the patience to go back and repeat a month's training when you fall short of mastery?

I won't tell you not to do F1, but I would encourage you to ask yourself if you have the time, energy and focus to pursue it. 

Based on you schedule and stated goals, I am skeptical that this is the right time for you to pursue this. It doesn't do you, Coach or the GST community any good if you end up trying it, being unable to juggle things and leaving the experience with a bad taste in your mouth.

My suggestion given you stated goals, your schedule and my own experiences are these (in order of importance):

1) dial in your diet by  increasing calories and protein. Start this by reading the nutrition forums.

2) develop and follow a comprehensive lifting program based on compound lifts. I also recommend that beyond the compounds you include some of the more bodybuilding style lifts such as curls. This is because you will see the aesthetic changes you seek and thus be more motivated to train.

3) Though you didn't ask this, I suggest that you consider the 800 meter. Soccer players tend to do outstanding in the 800m. In fact, they do so well it used to anger me to see how effortlessly they moved from soccer to the front of the 800m. The near-constant movement around the large soccer pitch seems to hit the sweet spot for middle distances, which is an odd blend of speed and endurance.

I believe F1 is a great program and I don't doubt that it's the best. I own BTGB, OG (which I do also like) and now F1 and H1. Foundations is the most useful of them all. It's outstanding. It's the first one that has left me confident that it will continue to offer me a clear training map. I just urge you to ask yourself if you're really ready to give it its due. If you're not at the point where you can, hold off, and do so when you're ready.

If you can honestly answer yes, don't blink about the money.

Wow - thank you very much for that post, it was insightful and provided a very valuable viewpoint. Many of your assumptions were right on (the ladies, oh definitely). 

Just to add some of my thoughts, I'm glad you brought up the point of a very full schedule, which may not allow me to devote myself 100% to F1. I will honestly think very hard about this. If i decide to do F1, it would be because:

1. outside of Monday and meet day, Track is mostly only an hour of block work and handoffs. 

2. I only do 3x a week full body weightlifting

3. I believe I have at least above-average recuperation abilities

Also, it may be quite hard to believe at only 130 pounds, but actually I have not been unsuccessful in my hypertrophy goals (perhaps because of my freakishly low and unyielding bodyfat percentage). Also, the benefits of weightlifting in sprinting have already become evident to me - it was my increase in speed over this last summer due to training that earned me a starting spot. I say that only to say I am not trying to find a program that will change my body and become my passion (although it may), but rather one that changes things up a little, strengthens some weak points of mine, builds strength, teaches me 'cool' movements, and a little additional aesthetic help would be welcome.

Thank you also for your specific input on track! I agree that filling out my track uniform a little more would be nice  , working on those Usain Bolt shoulders. On the 800, funnily enough I too thought that I would be strong at mid-distance, as I play a winger/outside midfielder position in soccer. However, I seem to have a slow-twitch/fast-twitch muscle imbalance. My strength is out of the blocks, I would venture to say there are few sprinters in my league who can keep up with me to the 50, but my gas starts to run out at about 150 meters. I know what you're talking about however, the opposite winger on my team is quite skinny, but also runs track and seemingly glides the 400 and 800 to state every year!

Thank you yet again for your insightful post, I will consider all of the points you brought up! Worst comes to worst, perhaps I will simply play around with and try out some isometric positions, on top of my weight lifting as they do interest me.

If you are gassing out, you may not be getting enough carbohydrates. They are what fuel your 800, almost exclusively, and without a reasonable store you WILL crap out faster than you should.

Everyone here who has tried sprinting a 400 or 800 on a low carb diet will be able to tell you the same thing.

For the lower body, the guys who have told you that your focus should be on weights are correct, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do F1.

It just means that, if you do F1, you should probably spend most of your training energy on deadlifts, single leg squat progressions (split squats and Bulgarian split squats will probably be your two best choices, but need to be mastered in that order), and of course heavier front and back squats.

If you're track and field, you will probably benefit immensely from the F1 upper body and core work. You will get stronger, but stay smaller (relatively speaking) than if you lift weights or combine the two, which is a definite advantage in track and field, especially the running events.

I would be very careful about playing with gymnastic strength, and that's what you'll be doing if you spend your money on Overcoming Gravity. That book is probably 70% useful information, 30% misleading/hypothetical/flat out bullcrap, and does nothing for teaching you the true basics. All you get is hand-drawn stick figures, which just don't show you what you need to see.

With F1, you get high definition video of every single exercise, and you get guidance every step of the way. I definitely think, with no question in my mind, that F1 will be worth your money, but the leg work will probably not be as good for you as the weight room due to your sport.

Having said that about the legs, you WILL want to do the iM movements from F1. They are actually the most valuable part of the leg section, in my most honest opinion (not that I ever give anything else), and are specifically designed to protect your joints from accidents. You won't find them anywhere else.

F1 workouts only take about 40 minutes (at most, in my experience). And I don't think the worst case scenario is doing them separately whenever you have time, either. Find time / room for F1 and you will be very glad you did in the years to come. You can always do two to three days a week if you are really short on time.

Bipocni said:

Something to remember, is that Overcoming gravity was written by a man with 2-3 years of training while Coach has decades of training national champions.  What Steven Low has accomplished in that short a time is nothing short of amazing, but who do you really think knows what he's talking about more?  It's one thing to make yourself strong, something else to train hundreds of people.

 

Foundation 1 is designed to be the approach that works for EVERYBODY.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure the author is a member of this forum, so I'd like to hear his opinions.

Steven low was involved in some form of gymnastic training for quite a bit more than 2-3 years. I remember reading his training log on Tyler Haas' now defunct ringtraining forum back in 2006 or so. I also remember him mentioning that he had done some gymnastics when he was younger, and then restarted when he joined a gymnastics troupe in University.

I'm not trying to give him or his book more legitimacy as I don't know him and haven't read it, but just wanted to point out that whatever it is that he achieved, it wasn't after only 2-3 years of training.

As for him being a member of this site, I don't think he comes anymore since being told he wasn't allowed to promote his book on this forum. If you want to look him up, his nick at the time was BrainDx.

Thank you very much all for your input, rest assured I have read everything thoroughly and considered it. I am not yet at a decision, but decided to start trying out some static holds at home for fun. Balance is something I have never tried before, so even a 6 second frog stand hold is challenging for me. The back lever though, was extremely difficult. I considered myself to have pretty good strength:bodyweight ratio, but the back lever truly was a challenge. I found myself struggling to pull to horizontal, and I felt strong strain on my elbows (I have had sore elbows after curling before). I have heard the front lever to be more challenging than the back lever, so I expected it to be even worse. However, I could confidently hold a tucked front lever with a straight back, though I could not extend my legs to a straddle. Finally, I could do sets of 6 second L sits. Is this normal for a beginner to static holds? Namely, the severe difference in difficulty of the back and front levers for me?

Many thanks

EDIT: Before bed, I quickly scanned through some posts in the "Prequisites" sticky, it seems I should be training german hangs before BLs! Tomorrow I will read through all the posts a bit more in depth (9 pages!)

EDIT 2: I don't know if any of you follow Mixed Martial Arts, but I remembered Georges St. Pierre (one of the best pound for pound) mentioning he started to include gymnastics in his training. I went to his youtube channel, and theres tons of videos of him training with gymnastics, great for motivation! Very cool to see one of the highest caliber athletes, of one of the most physically demanding and bad-donkey sports to train using gymnastics.

I'll say something that is maybe unpopular: if you want to train solely for physique, you don't need GST. There have been a lot of guys who have done okay with a basic gym membership.

That said, you will be doing your body, joints, and muscles a favour by doing GST. When you're older you'll thank yourself.

I wish I had something like F1 at your age.

bwsaw said:

Thank you very much all for your input, rest assured I have read everything thoroughly and considered it. I am not yet at a decision, but decided to start trying out some static holds at home for fun. Balance is something I have never tried before, so even a 6 second frog stand hold is challenging for me. The back lever though, was extremely difficult. I considered myself to have pretty good strength:bodyweight ratio, but the back lever truly was a challenge. I found myself struggling to pull to horizontal, and I felt strong strain on my elbows (I have had sore elbows after curling before). I have heard the front lever to be more challenging than the back lever, so I expected it to be even worse. However, I could confidently hold a tucked front lever with a straight back, though I could not extend my legs to a straddle. Finally, I could do sets of 6 second L sits. Is this normal for a beginner to static holds? Namely, the severe difference in difficulty of the back and front levers for me?

 

Many thanks

 

EDIT: Before bed, I quickly scanned through some posts in the "Prequisites" sticky, it seems I should be training german hangs before BLs! Tomorrow I will read through all the posts a bit more in depth (9 pages!)

 

EDIT 2: I don't know if any of you follow Mixed Martial Arts, but I remembered Georges St. Pierre (one of the best pound for pound) mentioning he started to include gymnastics in his training. I went to his youtube channel, and theres tons of videos of him training with gymnastics, great for motivation! Very cool to see one of the highest caliber athletes, of one of the most physically demanding and bad-donkey sports to train using gymnastics.

TOTALLY normal. I had a 40 second BL before cracking FL, although that might be an extreme example...

And there are several modern and classical martial artists on here (I'm a bit of both), all of whom clearly believe they're doing the right thing by their passion with GST. Not to put words in anyone's mouth of course, don't quote that, but I think it's generally fair to say,

Sir, (with all due respect) keep in mind that you are asking about a Gymnastic Bodies product on the Gymnastic Bodies forum, run by none other than the author of the product itself. No one is going to speak ill of it here, and talk up a competing product released by a Gymnastic Bodies "deserter" of sorts. 

From what I've heard of F1 (and HS1) from people I know that have it though (still saving up for it), it is a very high quality product - HD videos, takes you by the hand, every step of the way to an impressive level of strength. If you want to dive straight into training, not have to think about how to train or what to train - F1 is the way to go.

I own Overcoming Gravity and while I've learnt a lot from it, I will say I haven't quite always been able to apply it as well as I'd like in theory. Maybe I'm doing things wrong. I'll have to go back and check and reassess my program. You may well find yourself in the same position. If you're okay with that - there's nothing wrong with Overcoming Gravity. Steven Low is also very available on a number of forums to ask questions to directly if you have issues. But that's the main difference between the two - with OG, you may not get it right the first or second time around and find yourself... stuck every now and then and not quite understand why. 

OG attempts to teach you how to design a strength program, using bodyweight/gymnastics exercises. F1 gives you a high standard Gymnastic Strength Training™ program to follow to the tee. So pick whichever one you feel suits your needs best. 

If you want more reviews of both programs, perhaps try asking around other forums as well for the most honest feedback.