Shoulder extension puzzle

[Rachid Tahri]

When I try the "Butt only to wall" handstand I notice severe problems. There seems to be an impossibility

when I try to arch my back, open my shoulders and lean my butt (and legs) agains the wall. My back muscles get really tight and the back doesn't want to arch. This has been a great puzzle for me since I don't know what the main issue is (I know "shoulder" flexibility plays an important role but there is more to this and I can feel it). I included a video. Help is very much appreciated!

[Karim Rahemtulla]

Opening the shoulders will help this position quite a bit, and in most cases I've seen, it is the limiting factor on this exercise.  From the video, it looks like this is your limiting factor as well.  Lots of information on this topic can be found throughout the forum, in the Foundation program and also, I'm sure, in the upcoming Handstand program.

For me, shoulder dislocates, bridges and extended-arm static shoulder stretches worked well to improve my ROM.  To do this exercise while you work on the shoulder mobility, I would move the hands a bit closer to the wall and move outward as your ROM improves.

[Stefan Hinote]

I would focus on more chest to wall HS as it will teach proper alignment where back to wall often allows for bad habits to form.

 

That in conjunction with progressively moving your wrists closer to the wall should help tremendously.

[Rachid Tahri]

karimoo: Thanks for the reply. I've done these exercises (for over a year) and I'm still doing these exercises but for me they have little to no effect! Since I have very (extreme) tight lat muscles/back muscles the problem doesn't exist in the shoulder girdle only! What did work where some extreme lat stretches and thoracic spine stretches up until a certain degree again. Now I'm stuck again with this new variation...

 

stafanhinote: Thanks for the reply. I have been working on chest to wall handstand also for a while. You can see this

for the progression I've made. I didn't make this progressions by doing chest to wall handstand only, but by mainly stretching the thoracic spine, lat muscles, chest and shoulder girdle. The problem is that my back doesn't want to arch when my shoulders are open that's why I came up with this exercise. It kind of imitates the back bridge.

 

Another question: When working handstands I follow 2 routes: one of balance and one of alignment. In "balance" days I don't care much about alignment and go for max time holds. In alignment days I do the stretching and all wall handstand variations. I do this because I noticed that balance is a different beast (I know people that have good alignment but no balance and vise versa). What are your thoughts about this?

[Karim Rahemtulla]

Yes, agreed that the lats are a huge part of shoulder mobility.  Opening the shoulders includes ensuring optimal ROM in these tissues as well.  If you bend your arms when doing a static shoulder stretch and hollow the body, the lat-tri insertion will be targeted.  Progressively increasing the load on this stretch is a good idea, and is done by simply changing your stance while doing the stretch.

[Joshua Naterman]

Picking up Kit Laughlin's book Stretching and Flexibility is probably a good investment for you.

 

Facilitated Stretching, 3rd edition, is a good book to learn some techniques from, and it comes with a DVD. This is intended to be used primarily as an instruction manual for partner stretching, but can be useful to learn how to be a better stretching partner AND how to recognize some of the patterns in the body.

 

I'd probably pick up Kit's book first.

[Rachid Tahri]

I am proud to announce that this problem is finally solved! 

 

[Marios Roussos]

Very nice! So how did you go about it?

[Rachid Tahri]

First of all my stretching regimen is personal. So what works for me does not have to work for somebody else. I had very tight lats and chest muscles. My plan of attack was actually as follows:

 

Before stretching any muscles first and foremost I lye (extend the thoracic spine very carefully) on a foam roller and just breath and feel the tension building up in the thoracic area. This tension is actually a sign that stuff wants to "crack", and for me this is a lovely feeling. When stuff cracks I move up a vertebrae a the time and redo the same thing etc. Then I curl up for I while to do the "negative" stretch (I mean flexing the thoracic spine).

After this I get a tennis bal and start to seek out place in my spine and shoulder area that have tension. Again sometimes I here stuff popping but it's all nice and not dangerous!

When this is all over I feel that the back and shoulder and neck muscles are "relaxed". Now I do the following

 

1) Stretch lats and chest pnf

2) Tri insertion/Lat stretch pnf

3) Mobilise the first rib

 

 

The strengthening part consists of strengthening  the shoulder (traps) muscles with HS1 type stretches. This gives you the ability to "pull" the shoulders back actively. My problem was that the lats and chest where so tight that no matter how strong the lower traps where I couldn't pull my shoulders back. It's like wearing a tight suit!

Once I lied down on the ground with my hands overhead and asked a girl to press my upper arm to the ground, even when I relaxed she could't do this, with all her power....the lats were always "active" so I had to do some thinking and came to the conclusion to drop down of the strength work (only for a while though), especially the pulling stuff.

 

In the beginning I had lots of pain in the thoracic area, but after a couple of months my posture improved dramatically and the pain went away. I can even crack my thoracic area just by extending the thoracic spine and at the same time doing a PPT. My "awareness" of the spine has also dramatically improved. Apart from that I noticed also some extra hypertrophy on my back and neck muscles even with lowered volume of pulling work.

 

The fun is just starting. I need more passive flexibility and especially more strength in the traps. For the strength part I use H1 with couple of my own additional strength exercises for the lower traps and rotator cuff muscles. For the passive part I use the above mentioned stretches.

Before H1 I could already balance on my hands, the real challenge now is to use this new acquired ROM in the handstand....When I get "real" progress again, I'll post another video. 

 

I hope that is helpful for the community.  

[Keilani Gutierrez]

what kind of exercises do you do for your rotator cuffs?

I'm in need of some work there

[Rachid Tahri]

Mostly YTWL raises and cuban rotations. 

[Keilani Gutierrez]

Mostly YTWL raises and cuban rotations. 

thanks! was already doing the raises in my warm up, i'll do a bit of cuban rotations to see if they can help me

[Marios Roussos]

First of all my stretching regimen is personal. So what works for me does not have to work for somebody else. I had very tight lats and chest muscles. My plan of attack was actually as follows:

 

Before stretching any muscles first and foremost I lye (extend the thoracic spine very carefully) on a foam roller and just breath and feel the tension building up in the thoracic area. This tension is actually a sign that stuff wants to "crack", and for me this is a lovely feeling. When stuff cracks I move up a vertebrae a the time and redo the same thing etc. Then I curl up for I while to do the "negative" stretch (I mean flexing the thoracic spine).

After this I get a tennis bal and start to seek out place in my spine and shoulder area that have tension. Again sometimes I here stuff popping but it's all nice and not dangerous!

When this is all over I feel that the back and shoulder and neck muscles are "relaxed". Now I do the following

 

1) Stretch lats and chest pnf

2) Tri insertion/Lat stretch pnf

3) Mobilise the first rib

 

 

The strengthening part consists of strengthening  the shoulder (traps) muscles with HS1 type stretches. This gives you the ability to "pull" the shoulders back actively. My problem was that the lats and chest where so tight that no matter how strong the lower traps where I couldn't pull my shoulders back. It's like wearing a tight suit!

Once I lied down on the ground with my hands overhead and asked a girl to press my upper arm to the ground, even when I relaxed she could't do this, with all her power....the lats were always "active" so I had to do some thinking and came to the conclusion to drop down of the strength work (only for a while though), especially the pulling stuff.

 

In the beginning I had lots of pain in the thoracic area, but after a couple of months my posture improved dramatically and the pain went away. I can even crack my thoracic area just by extending the thoracic spine and at the same time doing a PPT. My "awareness" of the spine has also dramatically improved. Apart from that I noticed also some extra hypertrophy on my back and neck muscles even with lowered volume of pulling work.

 

The fun is just starting. I need more passive flexibility and especially more strength in the traps. For the strength part I use H1 with couple of my own additional strength exercises for the lower traps and rotator cuff muscles. For the passive part I use the above mentioned stretches.

Before H1 I could already balance on my hands, the real challenge now is to use this new acquired ROM in the handstand....When I get "real" progress again, I'll post another video. 

 

I hope that is helpful for the community.  

Thanks for taking the time to give a detailed answer Rachid.

 

I've also noticed a significant improvement in my thoracic extension and shoulder mobility after 8 months of F1 and H1. I also recently bought Kit's book and have slowly started incorporating his stretches into my routine. I don't think my improvement matches yours though which is why I was interested in the extra work you may have been doing. Thanks again.

[Connor Davies]

I can even crack my thoracic area just by extending the thoracic spine and at the same time doing a PPT.

o.0