Pre and Post Workout nutrition

[Guest Ido Portal]

My friend, as long as you are eating bread, you need a lot more help than what a couple of examples from me can provide.

You can search the forum for a previous post I made with a sample menu.

Search 'ido menu'.

[gymmie]

I found the sample diet that you had, but I'm currently a student so it's quite hard for me to keep that kinda diet. The question would be should I keep a low carb, high protein diet in order to gain mass and strength or otherwise? And for pre workout, should I eat more like adding in meat and stuff? Thanks

[Guest cccp21]

Hi all,

I have read a bit of info and noticed there is a lot of discussion on here about what to consume for pre and post workout nutrition. I read one of Ido's previous posts that had a meal plan where the post workout shake consisted of whey protein isolate, glycine and glutamine so I did a bit of reading on this. It seems many athletes particularly those concerned with gaining muscle mass use these products as well as other athletes.

I was wondering whether since a gymnast sticks mainly to a 3-5 rep range where the actual muscles aren't stressed as much as with more bodybuilding loading parameters whether they need to consume the exact same or quantity of products as athletes who develop more muscle mass as a more primary goal. I remember Charles Poliquin saying that he hooks some of his athletes to an IV that contains very high dosages of vitamin C among other substances for post workout. This is clearly a pretty serious part of his methods.

Maybe Ido in particular and others could share their thoughts on the subject or offer some recommended reading.

Many thanks.

IV for C for fat loss works really well.

Brandon Green

[Guest cccp21]

If I remember right I.V. feeding is a doping.

My post workout:

30g of protein/5og of carbohydrates/and extra added amino acids and other extracts/ 45 min. after again the same procedure

This is what the Soviets did.

Brandon Green

[Jason Stein]

You know what works for fat loss?

Instead of putting in an IV, fix what you put in your mouth.

It also must be stated that Charles Poliquin works with elite, world-class athletes who have already tuned and tweaked their diets to their utmost, and who are looking for that last half-percent of performance.

[Joshua Naterman]

Quite true People seem to think that the crazy stuff that elite athletes do makes them elite, when it's really the years of consistency with exercise and diet along with advantageous muscle insertions and superior recovery ability. That crazy stuff is just the last little bit of icing on a 7 layer cake.

[Edward Smith]

Ido,

could you please elaborate on your experience with low-carb, high-fat PWO meals? And also your reason/s for taking concentrate over isolate?

Your approach seems very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems as if your replacing the carbs for fat, whereas Robb sayed it need not be a big amount of fat just enough to stop any release of glucagon from the protein powder. He also mainly suggested using it for fat loss purposes, suggesting it may] be useful for the strength training athlete (perhaps you are a testimonial to this idea?).

I personally use a concentrate/isolate mixture (at a 2:1 ratio), so I would be interested to hear your thoughts on isolate v concentrate. As well as your reasoning for the saturated fat mixture, does it absorb better than monounsaturates or interact (or not interact!) with the protein in a more preferable way? Is there a reason you don't include fish oil as part of your fat mixture?

Cheers,

Ed

[Guest Ido Portal]

Ed,

I believe in the need for the presence of protein cofactors along with the protein itself for optimal absorption. Protein Isolate is a highly processed product. There is a shift now in the supplement industry towards the use of quality, whole concentrate versions.

The fat sources I use are for energy restoration, the majority comes from Medium Chain Triglycerides - from coconut cream. It is a very special kind of fat and the way that the body uses it is different from other saturated fats.

For a fat-adapted individual this kind of PW supplementation will provide good support and replenishment.

[Guest cccp21]

Ed,

I believe in the need for the presence of protein cofactors along with the protein itself for optimal absorption. Protein Isolate is a highly processed product. There is a shift now in the supplement industry towards the use of quality, whole concentrate versions.

The fat sources I use are for energy restoration, the majority comes from Medium Chain Triglycerides - from coconut cream. It is a very special kind of fat and the way that the body uses it is different from other saturated fats.

For a fat-adapted individual this kind of PW supplementation will provide good support and replenishment.

What do you think of Krill oil?

Brandon Green

[Guest Ido Portal]

Krill oil is a very quality source of omega 3 and other fatty acids, I have used it in my clinic to help older women with some conditions, but due to its high price, I do not feel it is the most bang for your buck product you can get for specific fatty acids consumption.

I also use GLA, CLA and high amounts of omega-3. There are many therapiutic properties to various fatty acids.

Ido.

[Joshua Naterman]

Krill oil is a very quality source of omega 3 and other fatty acids, I have used it in my clinic to help older women with some conditions, but due to its high price, I do not feel it is the most bang for your buck product you can get for specific fatty acids consumption.

I also use GLA, CLA and high amounts of omega-3. There are many therapiutic properties to various fatty acids.

Ido.

Ido, what do you consider to be a high amount of Omega-3 fatty acids?

How long do you think it takes for someone to become fat-adapted?

[Guest Ido Portal]

I have used up to 45 grams of fish oil a day with obese individuals.

Fat adaptation requires somewhere from 2-12 weeks. It will vary. The stricter you are about carb consumption the faster it will happen, but an initial tough period is to be expected.

Ido.

[cccp22]

I have used up to 45 grams of fish oil a day with obese individuals.

Fat adaptation requires somewhere from 2-12 weeks. It will vary. The stricter you are about carb consumption the faster it will happen, but an initial tough period is to be expected.

Ido.

********** Would it be a bad or negative result if 60-70% of those fats came from Medium chain triglcerides(sp?)?

What do think of the CKD type of diet for fat loss?

Brandon

[cccp22]

Something interesting that both me and Robb Wolf have started playing with lately (without knowing that the other is also experimenting with the same toy) is a lower carb, higher fat post workout shake.

The idea is to let someone who has fully fat adapted (through enzymatic shift) enjoy the benefits of a high fat - low carb shake.

The research on PWO has been done on people with a westernized diets - carb adapted and though the results indicate the need for glycogen replenishment through high GI pwo carb consumption along with a fast protein source, but for someone who has shifted his system to a low carb, higher fat diet, it will respond to a different set of rules - No need to chase your glycogen status.

The combination that I use is, believe it or not, (some traditional dieticians may tremble to hear this) a saturated fat combination (SCT, MCT and LCT) with protein concentrate (which I believe is supprior to isolate, but that is for another post) and a bit of a very low carb but high antioxident berries. This combination has been giving me great results in my recovery.

Ido.

******** I don't know if this has any relation to what you are saying but the Russians years ago had a pre workout drink that was

1 egg,sour cream.sunflower oil,cherry preserves and orange juice!

Brandon

[Joshua Naterman]

I have used up to 45 grams of fish oil a day with obese individuals.

Fat adaptation requires somewhere from 2-12 weeks. It will vary. The stricter you are about carb consumption the faster it will happen, but an initial tough period is to be expected.

Ido.

I have completed the fat adaptation, it took me around 8 weeks. It's quite surprising, how much easier it is to go without food when I am forced to, and how different everything feels when I eat it.

For those wondering how to make the adaptation easier, I found that Charles Poliquin's suggestion of mixing 1/4 cup of heavy cream with 2-10 grams of L-Glutamine to be perfect for me. I was full for hours sometimes, and my carb cravings went away within 10 minutes of drinking the mixture. I ended up taking the cream by itself and mixing glutamine in water, since cream doesn't dissolve things very well.

As Ido has said, fats with the PWO help a lot. I've found that the same 1/4 cup of heavy cream mixed in with my protein is quite excellent. I suppose you could use a number of other things, any variety of oils really. I'm sure coconut oil would work well and be even better, but I love the taste of the protein once I mix it with heavy cream. It's filling and like Ido says, I feel that my recovery is better.

[Brendan Coad]

I'm going to echo Slizzardman about the noticeable difference in hunger/satiety. I already ate pretty well before I made the transition, fresh greens from a CSA, grass-fed meat when I could but for the most part meat quality isn't too good because I can't really afford it. But I've been completely paleo/low carb since the end of March. At first I didn't think the transition affected me because I'm never very good at recognizing subconscious changes in myself/my mood but looking back on it, it definitely had an effect... I just feel bad my wife had to put up with it =/

But I feel like my body is operating much better(best/quickest way to describe it without writing an essay or short book)and would recommend this to anyone and everyone. And I'm definitely leaner/stronger than I was so thats cool too

For PWO I do whey+coconut milk or whey+coconut shavings mixed into a pudding like consistency.

[Yeti]

Eat a banana. Before or after it doesn't matter. Its good to have most of your carbs for the entire day for breakfast, pre-wrokout, and post-wrokout. To supply your body with energy. Contrary to popular belief around here, grains are not "evil" and can supply you with much energy and nutrition. http://www.vincedelmontefitness.com/blo ... ding-diet/ I use this link a lot, if its not broke, don't fix it. Carbs are very beneficial, its knowing how and when to use them that matters.

[Neal Winkler]

Eat a banana. Before or after it doesn't matter. Its good to have most of your carbs for the entire day for breakfast, pre-wrokout, and post-wrokout. To supply your body with energy. Contrary to popular belief around here, grains are not "evil" and can supply you with much energy and nutrition. http://www.vincedelmontefitness.com/blo ... ding-diet/ I use this link a lot, if its not broke, don't fix it. Carbs are very beneficial, its knowing how and when to use them that matters.

Why? You don't need carbs for energy in the morning so you can go about your daily activities which are done in a very low intensity aerobic state.

Furthermore, in the following study women ate a high carb diet with most calories coming consumed for breakfast and lunch (AM eating) or dinner and evening snack (PM eating). The PM eaters who consumed high amounts of carbs in the evening lost more fat than the AM eaters.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/127/1/75

[Yeti]

Eat a banana. Before or after it doesn't matter. Its good to have most of your carbs for the entire day for breakfast, pre-wrokout, and post-wrokout. To supply your body with energy. Contrary to popular belief around here, grains are not "evil" and can supply you with much energy and nutrition. http://www.vincedelmontefitness.com/blo ... ding-diet/ I use this link a lot, if its not broke, don't fix it. Carbs are very beneficial, its knowing how and when to use them that matters.

Why? You don't need carbs for energy in the morning so you can go about your daily activities which are done in a very low intensity aerobic state.

Furthermore, in the following study women ate a high carb diet with most calories coming consumed for breakfast and lunch (AM eating) or dinner and evening snack (PM eating). The PM eaters who consumed high amounts of carbs in the evening lost more fat than the AM eaters.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/127/1/75

I think that study is out dated (it was done in 1997) as every sensible nutrition expert vouches for carbing it up in the morning when you want carbs then slowing off of them later through the day. http://www.tinajuanfitness.info/articles/art060899.html Exactly why breakfast is important. For regularly functioning people who don't waste away on a regular basis carbs are esential for high energy output. I personally along with many other people I associate with are very active. Without carbs we'd all be skin and bones. Cutting carbs can be great for fatloss, but they are an essential part of an athlete's diet and getting in shape for a scrawny guy.

[Yeti]

here's this as well http://www.intermartialarts.com/article/sumo-wrestler-diet

[Neal Winkler]

Eat a banana. Before or after it doesn't matter. Its good to have most of your carbs for the entire day for breakfast, pre-wrokout, and post-wrokout. To supply your body with energy. Contrary to popular belief around here, grains are not "evil" and can supply you with much energy and nutrition. http://www.vincedelmontefitness.com/blo ... ding-diet/ I use this link a lot, if its not broke, don't fix it. Carbs are very beneficial, its knowing how and when to use them that matters.

Why? You don't need carbs for energy in the morning so you can go about your daily activities which are done in a very low intensity aerobic state.

Furthermore, in the following study women ate a high carb diet with most calories coming consumed for breakfast and lunch (AM eating) or dinner and evening snack (PM eating). The PM eaters who consumed high amounts of carbs in the evening lost more fat than the AM eaters.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/127/1/75

I think that study is out dated (it was done in 1997) as every sensible nutrition expert vouches for carbing it up in the morning when you want carbs then slowing off of them later through the day. http://www.tinajuanfitness.info/articles/art060899.html Exactly why breakfast is important. For regularly functioning people who don't waste away on a regular basis carbs are esential for high energy output. I personally along with many other people I associate with are very active. Without carbs we'd all be skin and bones. Cutting carbs can be great for fatloss, but they are an essential part of an athlete's diet and getting in shape for a scrawny guy.

What, specifically, is out of date about the study?

You're link does not contain a single reference. Anecdotes about sumo wrestlers do not prove that its better to eat carbs in the morning. Martin Berkhan gets amazing results with his clients by having them skip breakfast.

http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Client%20results

Carbs are important for high intensity activity, but what proof do you have that you should eat less of them as the day wears on?

[Yeti]

What, specifically, is out of date about the study?

You're link does not contain a single reference. Anecdotes about sumo wrestlers do not prove that its better to eat carbs in the morning. Martin Berkhan gets amazing results with his clients by having them skip breakfast.

http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Client%20results

Carbs are important for high intensity activity, but what proof do you have that you should eat less of them as the day wears on?

The study was done in 1997 when anything today says NOT to do exactly that. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bodytrans.htm and http://www.shapefit.com/late-night-snacking.html This should help. The point was to show that breakfast is essential and carbs during breakfast makes sense. These help explain further in depth.

[Neal Winkler]

What, specifically, is out of date about the study?

You're link does not contain a single reference. Anecdotes about sumo wrestlers do not prove that its better to eat carbs in the morning. Martin Berkhan gets amazing results with his clients by having them skip breakfast.

http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Client%20results

Carbs are important for high intensity activity, but what proof do you have that you should eat less of them as the day wears on?

The study was done in 1997 when anything today says NOT to do exactly that. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bodytrans.htm and http://www.shapefit.com/late-night-snacking.html This should help. The point was to show that breakfast is essential and carbs during breakfast makes sense. These help explain further in depth.

Your first link has no references.

Your second link has references that are older than one I gave, yet you accused me of giving out of date references.

A study is only out of date when it's methodology (once believed to be accurate) is now known to be problematic, or subsequent studies have shown it results were a fluke. You have proven neither.

In your second link, the reasoning behind not eating carbs at night is purely mechanistic. That is to say, no citations were given that measured the actual end points of FFM/fat mass. On the other hand, the study I cited did measure actual body composition as an end point and did not find that eating late at night inhibited fat loss compared to a day time eating pattern. While it is interesting and important to know the mechanisms that take place in our body, ultimately we are most interested in the "big picture" which is changes in body comp.

In less words, my study is better than your studies.

[Rafael David]

which impacts that someone who is not suited to fat may have been consuming coconut cream in PWO?

ps: do not know if it was possible to understand, my english is horrible ...

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a really good question, and I don't know the answer.

After some quick searching I found that MCTs don't delay gastric emptying because they are water soluble, and that is why they can be used pre-exercise for some extra energy. There have been conflicting reports as to whether or not these fats actually affect glycogen depletion or restoration in any way, though it appears that MCTs do not decrease the amount of glycogen replenished. The source was unclear as to the details of this study, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, but it appears that the body replenishes glycogen equally regardless of a high fat or low fat PWO meal. I don't know if PWO carb levels were manipulated, it doesn't say. It DOES say that intra-muscular fat storage was increased after the high fat PWO meal. Intramuscular fat is utilized to a much greater degree than adipose fat, so it could very well be that the increased intra-muscular fat storage can improve performance. However, that was beyond the scope of the study, and the study was very small at 7 participants. Very interesting stuff. It also appears that long-term consumption of very high fat levels (61% of total calories in the referenced study) lead to lower power outputs compared to the control group. It is unclear exactly what that means, as I can not find the reference page. However, the information suggests that athletes absolutely need carbs for peak performance. Note that this has absolutely nothing to do with health, and that most research currently supports the premise that there are multiple diets that promote extremely good health, with high fat diets being among them.

I haven't seen anything that indicates a replacement for pre-workout, intra-workout or PWO(first two meals post workout) carbs, so you probably still need those. For the rest of the day, lots of fat is ideal. It is the preferred energy source for low intensity and "medium intensity" work apparently, so the body will use it whenever available, especially in easily digestible forms. All in all, this is very interesting to me. It seems that cycling nutrients throughout the day to best suit the activities you perform would be the ideal option. Just like with exercise, following only one approach appears to produce results that are far inferior to a more complete and integrated approach.