How to train butterfly?

The other day I tried to do a butterfly pull in a dead hang position and I only managed to pull my arms apart by half an inch. What should be the first step to train for this skill?

It would probably help to write some information so everyone has an idea of where you are and what tools you can use. I'm going to assume (hopefully assume correctly) that you have an iron cross already or somewhere near it.

I've heard before that you can pull the rings together then apart and that will allow you to get further. Also, negatives. The best would probably be a spotter. Or try putting your feet on a block in an l cross and doing it that way.

Why would you train that?

No offense, last time you were seeking help for training Manna, and your L-sit was about 10s? I don't want to be rude if you think that I'm just trying to tell you that you're weak, it's not that! It's just, when you do a topic asking how to train an advanced ring strength element, I think it's obvious that you're going to actually train it, because if not then the time you put in writing this topic and thinking about this feat could be used in a better way.

Why would you train that?

No offense, last time you were seeking help for training Manna, and your L-sit was about 10s? I don't want to be rude if you think that I'm just trying to tell you that you're weak, it's not that! It's just, when you do a topic asking how to train an advanced ring strength element, I think it's obvious that you're going to actually train it, because if not then the time you put in writing this topic and thinking about this feat could be used in a better way.

That's right, I am actually always curious about things I cannot do.

So what I want to know is that when initiate the move, do you fire the lats? I have no idea which muscles to engage.

You obviously would need a strong iron cross for a butterfly cross.

I can think of several ways to train it and they are:

1) concentrics with a spotter

2) weighted iron cross holds, pullouts, and negatives

3) bent-arm versions like Aguilar's wide MU

The butterfly pulls will obviously engage the same muscles you would in a static iron cross which are lats, chest, front delts and biceps (if you roll your shoulders forward).

I want to know how far it will be for someone who can hold a cross for 5-10 seconds to get a butterfly cross. I know people who can hold FL or BL for about 5 seconds have the strength to do a front pull or back pull from hang to the static position.

To reiterate the comments above, for your current level of strength, attempting this element will be exposing yourself to a high risk of injury. Coach Sommer has stated his prereq's for the Iron Cross, and I don't believe you are anywhere near them.

I can also say, that with a number of years of experience behind him with the general public, his prereq's are getting more conservative. There have been too many elbow issues.

Build the foundation first!!!! Be curious, sure, but with your actual training be smart.

I definitely agree with everyone else who cautioned you with training this movement, doing some light training for inverted butterfly pulls, I damaged my rotator cuff. Took about a month and a half to start to heal. These are serious exercises. That being said, im super excited because I have achieved a butterfly pull to cross with the assistance of my cross trainers. ( I really do rely on these too much!)

Obviously the butterfly pull takes enormous Lat strength, among other things, mainly posterior muscles. What finally allowed me to do a forearm-assisted pull I think was all of the victorian training I've been doing lately, as well as working front lever rows. My advice would be to throw in some Victorian leans, as well as working on variations of front lever rows to build the strength in your back. Also, cautiously working some inverted straight arm pelicans should help. Under the topic "Victorian progress" you'll see an example of those if you're interested. :wink:

Also working the actual iron cross hold should help a lot as well.

For whatever it's worth those are my two cents, keep training and dreaming! No matter what the obstacles.

Here is my progress with the butterfly pull. Continuing from this stage, it's gonna get much much harder....

Really quick question to those who know kinesiology...is it accurate to say that a butterfly pull to cross is primarily internal rotation strength, and the theoretical inverted butterfly pull would mainly work external rotation strength?

Really quick question to those who know kinesiology...is it accurate to say that a butterfly pull to cross is primarily internal rotation strength, and the theoretical inverted butterfly pull would mainly work external rotation strength?

That's a good question. It is, without question , true that a butterfly involves internal rotation and immense SITS muscle strength, so I'd say it's more of a semi-tiered paper-rock-scissors response than a flat "this more than that" response.

1) The most force will have to come from shoulder adductors, most of which are also internal rotators because that's what you are actually moving your body with: shoulder adduction. That's the primary function of the lats and pecs which are the prime movers in this case.

2) Having said that, if you don't have the SITS and deltoid strength to keep the shoulder safely centered in the socket then your body won't let you do the movement even if adductors are strong enough. In the event that you've trained long and hard enough to overcome this protective inhibition, you will injure yourself in the attempt.

3) The third major factor would be scapular stability. If you can't keep your scaps in the right place throughout the movement, your shoulder socket will be unstable and you won't be able to do the movement without injuring yourself, if your body allows you to do it at all (just like 2).

So, I'd say the following is a general truth for all upper body strength, but especially low leverage things like the butterfly:

1) Scapular stability, including both static and dynamic stability (proper scapular rhythm with no dysfunctional patterns during movement) is the most important thing. This is a combination of proper recruitment patterns as well as muscle strength

2) Glenohumeral stability: The ability to maintain the head of the humerus fairly well-centered in the glenoid fossa. This is what we typically think of as the shoulder (glenohumeral joint). This is almost completely dependent on 1. Without scapular stability, the location of the socket is never where it should be and this makes glenohumeral stability nearly impossible with any real load.

3) Prime mover strength. I don't think I need to explain this too much

So, it is not true that butterfly works mainly internal rotation strength or that inverted butterfly works mainly external rotation strength. It IS true that, comparatively, more internal rotation strength should be required for butterfly than inverted butterfly, and visa versa (more external for inverted than regular).

Inverted would be much harder because the only muscles that could actively move you would be upper pecs, biceps, and deltoids. Supporting muscles would be SITS group and scapulothoracic muscles (those going from scaps to rib cage or spine). The muscle mass is simply much, much smaller. The risk of injury is much higher and there is almost certainly a weight limit on the exercise for practical reasons (eventually you will rip the tendons off the bones as the body adapts but the forces get higher). This is, again, because of much larger PSI ratings due to overall much smaller total area of tendon-to-bone attachment for the inverted butterfly.

The inverted is so hypothetical that it is just very hard to say anything solid, but I am confident that it is much more possible for a smaller person than a bigger person.

Thanks Josh, that was very helpful! Exactly the response I was looking for. I guess my question was a little too "black and white". I tend to be that way

I wonder if the scapula need to have the same orientation throughout the movement or not in order to complete it. I had the idea of beginning from a dead hang with decently protracted shoulder blades and then strongly retracting them towards the second half of the movement. I can't tell what most gymnasts do from looking at footage though!

A little progress video on the Butterfly, slowwwwwly making progress! Does anyone know if GH pull with straight arms to Cross is in the FIG? I know Nakayama is...

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