A few questions on my workout plan

Firstly, Re: Ido's recent post ...I must confess to being an unintentional offender. I never thought of it quite like that, but agree completely with Ido's statement and requests, and post my (slightly edited) message here for all to read, comment on and/or learn from.

Here's what I have figured out so far, and it's based around short workout times due to work and home-life commitments. There is also a warm-up, cool-down and stretching. I do 10-15 mins of HIIT afterwards if I'm not too gassed:

Workout A (Dynamic)

A1 HSPU progressions

working toward 5x3 bodyweight

A2 Pull-up progressions

working toward 5x3 bodyweight

A3 Hanging leg-lift progressions, reverse-hypers

3 reps only, 3:1:3 tempo

Workout B (Static)

B1 Front-lever progressions

0:60 total in >0:05 efforts

B2 Back-lever progressions

0:60 total in >0:05 efforts

B3 Hollow hold, to Side plank, to Arch hold, to Side Plank

two circuits, 0:30 each, with no rests between

Schedule

Monday: A

Tuesday: B

Thursday: A

Friday: B

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N.B. When I say 'progressions' I mean pretty much at the beginning of Coach Sommers' progressions. For example, I am currently doing 'reps' of 5 seconds up to my 0:60 in tuck front and tuck back levers. I also do a few other corrective exercises, but am happy with advice I have recieved on those already.

I've tried to avoid separate push and pull days, but needed to split up my workouts. I wasn't sure whether to aim for a mixture of static and dynamic work in each session, or alternate completely static and dynamic sessions. I like the neatness of splitting them, so that's where I've started.

There is no direct leg work in there at the moment, but they feel like they're getting a good amount of work from hill-sprints (running and MTBike), rowing machine, lunges, squats and whatever else might be involved in HIIT sessions ...not to mention hours per week of 'bouncing' while trying to soothe our colicky 6 week old daughter!

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Questions (any other comments also welcome, of course)

1) I've started with the Back-lever as I feel I'm so far away from the Planche, and I figured it was similar muscle groups? I also wanted to give my wrists a little break from the HSPU training. Would I be better off working Planche from the start, or should I just progress to the planche when I have a solid back-lever? (I hope I've got my lever names right ...I mean when you're facing the ground with arms behind you).

2) Would I be better off mixing up static and dynamic work in each session? I don't have the time to do all the work in one session, so for now the split is going to be necessary. Coach Sommer mentioned something in another post about alternating static/dynamic work ...but that related to specific movements, not workout plans (I think).

3) Regards rep time for static holds - If I can hold my position for 0:10, should I work in sets of 0:05 (50% max) for as many reps as possible to get my 0:60, or should I work in the longest efforts I can manage throughout. The first will mean more consistent efforts, and the second will mean more effort at the start, but will taper off more quickly. Once I get down to 0:01 per rep ...am I wasting my time? Although I hate to ask ...Ido: I would really appreciate any feedback you might have on this, as I remember my thinking/confusion was based on a post of yours that I didn't quite get 100%. Static holds are still feeling really alien to me ...but I like them.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read this, and especially those who were able to help out.

Cheers,

George.

George!

I'll try to help clearify some things for you:

A. I advice you to seperate the tri-sets into two sets A1-A2 and B1. It is too much.

A1 HSPU

A2 Pull up

B1 HLR

B. In workout B - pairing b-lever with f-lever will not allow you to enjoy the benefits of antagonistic work. For sure seperate the hollow holds and keep them to the end of the workout or they will interfere with the lever work.

If you dont want to work the planche, I advice you to do:

A1 F-lever (60 sec total time)

B1 B-lever (60 sec total time)

C1 Hollow hold....

If not, choose the planche:

A1 F-lever

A2 Planche

C1 Hollow hold

C. You can mix static and dynamic work, and you can keep it seperated. Both will work.

D. Work in 50% of max hold time when using static prograssions - as to coach sommer recommendation.

E. Take into consideration, if you can only achieve 5 sec holds in the easiest progressions, it may be wise to invest more time in this point of time to improve your GPP and establish a base of strength. Someone without the ability to do 10 pull ups, 10 HLR, 10 deep pushups (on top of the PBars) would be disapointed with their efforts to work the static positions (planche, f-lever, etc...) without improving those numbers. A more 'bang for your buck' aproach will be to get the basic exercise's numbers up first and only then to return to static work, in my opinion.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Ido,

That has helped immensely. If you have time, I do have a few more questions to help clarify the thinking process behind the advice. Give a man a fish, and all that... I will definitely take your advice to work on my GPP numbers before training my static holds.

Don't worry if you're too busy, just thought it might help me (and maybe some reading this) to answer a few more of their own questions in the future?

1) Pairing Front-lever and back-lever not giving great (any?) antagonistic benefits ...is this because the shoulder angles are so different, while front-lever and planche are in a similar range regards the shoulder?

2) If I am working in 50% of max hold time during static holds to accumulate 0:60 total ...say my max hold is 0:20, and my reps would be for 0:10 ...what should I do for maximum benefit when I can no longer hold the full 0:10 near the end of the set, for example:

> 0:10, 0:10, 0:10, 0:10, 0:08, 0:04, 0:02, 0:02, 0:02, 0:01, 0:01

Should I stop when I can no longer manage the 0:10, or do whatever I have to to get the full 0:60?

3) You specified PBars when mentioning that I need to be able to do 10 deep pushups ...Is that the same as doing deep pushups on paralettes ...and would the paralettes need to be the same width as PBars?

4) By deep do you mean feet elevated to the height of the hands, and shoulders down to the level of the bars? Below the bars? Where should the hands be in relation to the shoulders at the bottom - at the shoulders, slightly below, as low as possible (pseudo-planche pushup style)?

I just previewed this, and sorry I have so many questions!!! ...I think being a programmer (well if you call Actionscript/Flash and HTML/CSS actual programming ...many don't) exaggerates a need in my personality to understand as completely and accurately as possible how/why things happen. I do try and train as much as I type!

Thanks again for all your help to date, I really appreciate it,

George.

1. Both back lever and front lever both primarily work lats (with front lever emphasis on chest as well as opposed to back lever emphasis on the back). Thus, back lever, front lever, cross are more or less considered pulling exercises while planches, inverted crosses and malteses are generally considered pushing exercises.

Basically, back levers and front levers are very similar to each other because of the leverage biomechanics and thus are NOT antagonistic.

2. The problem which Ido stated which I agree with is you're not going to get much benefit once your sets are reduced to less than 2 seconds really. If your hold is less than 5s then you're not going to get many quality sets. On the other hand, if your max hold is much higher than that, it's easier to get enough sets to get quality work. IMO if you can get 30 quality seconds just start from there and build up to the 60s Coach Sommer recommends. As it is with your hold at 5s you're probably better off doing strength work.

3. Pbars and parallettes are basically referring to the same thing.

The width depends on you. Generally, about from fingertips to the elbow is a good measurement. When I was competing we did fingertips to elbow plus an extra two fingertips width. To make these harder just elevate the feet. Make sure you're keeping your core tight and holding a slightly hollow position.

4. Deep is to the edge of your range of motion which basically as far as you can. The bigger your range of motion, the stronger a muscle becomes as you start working it when it is shortened because shortened muscles are stronger than when they're lengthened.

Braindx went over everything already, good job.

I'll just add one thing:

If you have a drop off below the 50% max time hold in the static holds work, you are not resting enough. It should be fairly easy to complete the static holds, it is only 50% of max hold. Rest enough for you to maintain quality sets.

Thanks guys!

This series of posts have really cleared things up for me. The back-lever being classed as a pull was a shocker, but exactly the kind of info I clearly wasn't going to figure out by myself!

I will definitely be starting with the Planche instead, now I know that the back-lever is a pull ...but following Ido's advice, I will be working on my GPP for a short while first to get my numbers up in the exercises outlined earlier.

That will also give me a little more time to ditch some more body fat (which is going well ...three belt notches since mid-January).

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For anyone who is following this, I will write out what I will be doing once GPP is sorted. I guess I will be doing something similar to Workout A until then:

Workout A - Monday and Thursday

HSPU progressions,

Pull-up progressions

working toward 5x5 bodyweight

Hanging leg-lift progressions,

Good mornings (weighted)

3 reps only, 3:1:3 tempo

Workout B - Tuesday and Friday

Planche progressions,

Front-lever progressions

0:60 total in 50%max efforts

Hollow hold sequence*

0:30 each, two circuits with no rests between

* Hollow hold sequence: Starting in hollow hold, then roll over to side hold, then onto front and finally finish on other side. The arms, legs and shoulders do not touch the floor at any point, maintaining tension throughout. Also helps balance and awareness in these positions.

Anything preventing you from doing leg work?

I honestly think you'd probably be better off with something like:

HSPUs

Dips (possibly weighted or other progression like leaned forward)

Pullups (possibly weighted)

Rows

Pistols/Squats/DLs/Oly lifts/Sprints (usually 1-3 of whatever leg work you want)

Core (if you really wanted to)

I mean, if you're fairly new to working out and your base conditioning level is fairly low then yours would be decent assuming you had some requisite strength to handle it. However, generally those two attributes (requisite strength for the isometrics and conditioning level when newer) are mutually exclusive which is why it's better to go with the compounds as we've been discussing.

Your call though.

Hi braindx,

Thanks for your concern.

I just wrote (and deleted) a really long post outlining why I don't train legs specifically at the moment ...and it all sounded like (bad) excuses when I read it back!

If I'm honest, I just don't enjoy lifting weights, and get little/no satisfaction by having goals that involve essentially doing the same thing, but with a larger weight involved. I am excited about being able to press straddle-sit to handstand one day, but the prospect of Squatting 1.5x bodyweight leaves me cold. I think that is one of the reasons I lost interest in Crossfit (although I still recommend it to people) and I'm drawn to BW exercises so much instead?

I do intend to put some leg training in there, but was going to add it in later, once I'd found some exercises/progressions that I can work with and ascertained what strength level I am currently at. I will be starting with a look at Pistols, and am pretty interested in Coach Sommers' recent thread regarding BW Hamstring Curls and a Glute-Ham Raise variant.

Always open to advice!

Cheers,

George.

P.s. I get some PChain work in with KB swings (quite often), hill climbs/sprints, tyre flipping, rowing and occasionally even some Cleans/C&Js in HIIT sessions. I don't mind the odd bit of OLifting ...as long as it's only when I feel like it. However I guess there is a significantly higher endurance, lower strength effect from these sessions.

Actually, since I'm here ...can anyone help with the mechanics/anatomy/classification of how a back-lever is a 'pull' ...I am having a little trouble convincing all of my brain how that works.

There is a little voice in the back somewhere that keeps saying that from the shoulder's point of view, surely the back-lever is a static hold somewhere in the middle of the range/path taken by the humerus while performing a dip!?

I am (for now) under the the belief that a dip is (still) classed as a 'push'.

Now if you guys agree that a back-lever is a pull, then a pull it is - all associated advice will be followed as a given, regardless.

Ultimately I guess this might be a discussion of what the definition/classification of a pull and a push (at least in gymnastic circles) might be!?

Cheers,

George.

The flexion of the shoulder at a primarily extremely extended angle involves recruitment of anterior deltoids (primarily a push muscle) but also extensively lat and chest recruitment which are heavily involved in training for a front lever.

It's very easy to test this. Basically sit on the edge of your chair and put your arm back behind you and pull down. Feel the muscles that are contracting.

In general, I would say that the 'pushing' muscles are triceps, anterior delts and chest while 'pulling' is biceps, posterior delts and lats/back. However, this somewhat breaks down with leveraged skill because they recruit so many muscles. Instead, we break them down on associations where back lever, front lever and cross all primarily use chest and lats with some involvement of biceps (which are pulling-ish more than pushing-ish if you the drift) and planche, inverted cross and maltese tend to be pushing as they heavily involve the more conventional pushing in being anterior delt, chest (primarily clavicular head of the pec) and biceps/triceps to an extent. Training towards these moves actually gives you more a sense on how they relate to each other rather than just trying to conceptualize it if you're not that kind of person.

Clearly put, thanks ...and now all of brain is in complete agreement.

The best I'd come up with by myself was that anything moving the hands down or toward the torso felt like it should be called pulling, and anything moving upward or away from the torso felt like it should be called pushing or lifting.

Guess I've nothing to do now but ...well ...train! :shock:

Thanks for all your help,

George.