Too Many Doubts

Hello, sorry for start 2 topics in this nutrition forum recently, hope this is the last one.

Well, i've reed many things about many meals and many diets, and finally i'm going crazy, so i'll write my questions here.....

1-Milk: is this really healthy? many people say not, and also the cause of many disseases, including cancer. Others says its a good source of proteins. Personally i drink milk diary.

2-Meat: i cut almost all the meat lasts months for 3 reasons: Animals in farms are just tortured, human body seems to be vegetarian and actually meat has many hormones. The main doubt for me here its about human body, vegetarian animals has long intestines like us, not good for meat. What do you think?

3-Soy: TODAY i bought soy for first time, read has 30 gr of proteins, thats nice. But now just read a comment from Ido saying is the wrost thing you can eat.....I just said damn.

4-Grains and legumes: Should i not eat rice and legumes? Personally i  want to eat for breakfast rice with legumes and 1 egg, is this bad for any reason?

5-Paleo: it seems that paleo diet its famous here, but what about that people in paleolithic had a life of about 30 years? Maybe too much fats and meats.

Thank you guys for any kind of answer!

NeN said:

Hello, sorry for start 2 topics in this nutrition forum recently, hope this is the last one.

 

Well, i've reed many things about many meals and many diets, and finally i'm going crazy, so i'll write my questions here.....

 

1-Milk: is this really healthy? many people say not, and also the cause of many disseases, including cancer. Others says its a good source of proteins. Personally i drink milk diary.

I don't know enough to comment on any milk<->cancer link.

NeN said:

2-Meat: i cut almost all the meat lasts months for 3 reasons: Animals in farms are just tortured, human body seems to be vegetarian and actually meat has many hormones. The main doubt for me here its about human body, vegetarian animals has long intestines like us, not good for meat. What do you think?

Humans are omnivores. Many western diets may include more meat than is optimal. Cutting out all meat will alleviate the effects of eating too much meat, but you need to be careful to make sure you're getting enough of some other nutrents, like B12 and Iron. Not eating meat can also make it difficult to reach your target protein intake, but that can be fixed with supplements. To my knowledge there is no reason you need to eat meat to gain strength or bulk.

NeN said:

3-Soy: TODAY i bought soy for first time, read has 30 gr of proteins, thats nice. But now just read a comment from Ido saying is the wrost thing you can eat.....I just said damn.

Soy protein has very poor metabolic availability. I've also heard there are other reasons to avoid soy but I am unfamiliar with them.

NeN said:

4-Grains and legumes: Should i not eat rice and legumes? Personally i  want to eat for breakfast rice with legumes and 1 egg, is this bad for any reason?

In my opinion most grains are just empty carbs. They're not going to hurt you if you're going to burn through them, but generally they are not good sources of nutrients, so if you eat so much that they're taking the place of other healthy foods you may not be getting enough. I can't comment on legumes because I don't know enough about them.

NeN said:

5-Paleo: it seems that paleo diet its famous here, but what about that people in paleolithic had a life of about 30 years? Maybe too much fats and meats.

Yeah, the idea that paleo is good because it mirrors how prehistoric man ate is poorly though out. Prehistoric man was not the epitome of health and longevity. That said, there's no good evidence to suggest that their short life span was due to eating meat and fat. More likely it was due largely to poor dental hygiene (if you have no teeth, you can't eat much, and you'll starve) and poor medicine (death rates are a lot higher when almost all bacterial infections are fatal).

The thing about milk is that the amino acid profile is relatively good and it is a quite cheap source of calories and protein. But there are problems like many can't handle milk products that well(majority are lactose intolerant) and I personally experience mild acne from dairy products.

Soy? Google Soy + Estrogen. Soy can increase your estrogen levers and lower your testosterone and if you are a man you do not want that.

I think meat is awesome, I have never heard or read anyone having problems digesting meat. We are omnivores and grass-fed beef or wild meat is good stuff. Definitely buy it grass-fed if you can - omega 3s.

Grains are alright but there are evidence that gluten sucks, and suck badly. I would choose wholegrain and gluten-free products such as brown rice, oats etc.

Samui said:

Soy? Google Soy + Estrogen. Soy can increase your estrogen levers and lower your testosterone and if you are a man you do not want that.

It's bad regardless of your gender if you are trying to develop strength. Testosterone is an anabolic hormone. Lower testosterone will cause you to lose muscle mass, all other things equal. 

Thank you. I just read the Peanuts are legumes too, should i stop eating them?

1. Milk is a pretty good source of all of the macronutrients and has a decent balance of them. That said, milk has a few problems. In the United States, milk is often not from the highest quality animals and because it is pasteurized, looses lactase which helps you digest it. If you can find raw milk or know that the animals are in good condition (no hormones& not pregnant or sick) then is fine to add to the diet. The other problems with milk is that some people cant digest it well. This is especially true of those who aren't of european decent.

2. So the question of meat is a big one. It seems you are mixing ethical and health dilemmas. I have been to several farms both beef and chicken and haven't seen anything too bad. However these were local farms and I usually buy locally sourced beef. I do not buy tubed beef from walmart or other big chain. Grassfed beef is also of better quality. You should read more about our digestive system. We are incapable of breaking down plants like ruminants which means that we have to have an ever more diverse diet. I do believe that it is possible to get everything from plants, however that is difficult. The main draw for meat is that it is a decent fat and protein source. I eat mostly beef, lamb, bison, and fish. I will get chicken at a restaurant. Meat is a complete protein source which makes it useful in the diet. Just make sure you get more vegetables than meat. Thats really the key. Most eat processed grains and meat which is a bad idea.

3. Soy is not a great idea. I avoid it like the plague.

4. Rice is pretty much benign despite what the paleo crowd would have you believe. It is a good starch to eat. And you do need starches in your diet. Legumes and other grains are known to have adverse health effects. I try to not eat them though sometimes ill eat things with bean it occasionally. I beleive the Perfect Health Diet has a good list of starches that could be considered "safe".

5. During the Paleolithic era it is shown that from skeletons that they did not suffer from many of the diseases we have today. Likely they died from things like infection and just getting killed more often than not. Most agree that they were probably healthier. Despite what you believe about the past. Modern Agriculture and processing has produced food that is generally less healthy for us. I follow a sort of modified diet. I am not low carb but enjoy vegetables and meat pretty much every meal.

Keep your diet simple.

The more deeply we delve into science, the more you will see that we need to stick to the simplest of diets:

1) Eat plants with every meal. Get lots of greens (unless your physician wants you to be careful of vitamin K, which is a concern for heart patients and clotting patients. That's probably not you, but you should call your doctor if you aren't sure.) and try to get plenty of different colors each week (red, orange, yellow, blue, etc). This includes both fruits and veggies, but focus on veggies. They are more nutrient dense. Fruits should be your treats, and you should try to have one piece per feeding.

2) Get plenty of protein in your diet. Up to 2.8g per kg of bodyweight is fine. You will typically want 30g doses. If you're vegetarian, mix grains, seeds, and legumes. Get an even split of any TWO of those types at each meal and you'll be fine. Meat is nice, because you get more iron and zinc, and need less protein overall.

3) Cook your starches (legumes, grains, tubers, etc) and soak your beans for 8-12 hours before cooking them.

4) Don't eat anything that's processed (exception: white rice, which is fine). Stick to natural foods.

5) Eat food according to the amount of energy you burn.

6) Have fats, proteins, and carbs at each meal.

That's it. That's literally IT.

Don't get lost in paleo broscience-land. They are having to constantly modify their stance regarding several things, because they are wrong about everything other than "don't eat processed garbage" and they are slow as hell to accept that fact, but they have no choice.

Stick to the basics.

Joshua: What about that legumes have antinutrients?

You said 2,8 g per kg, thats a lot, can you tell me good sources of protein? ( i know eggs, fish, cheese....)

Also i should not eat things like bread and pasta, as i read. Thats correct?

NeN said:

Also i should not eat things like bread and pasta, as i read. Thats correct?

Wheat is especially undesirable but if that is your only practical source of carbohydrates you've just got to make due. Whey is an excellent protein source if you have access to it at low prices. Basically all meats will give you all your essential amino acids.

By the way there is no evidence that soy causes an increase in estrogen levels (or triggers the same receptors as an agonist) to a significant degree in males. Males make more estrogen naturally than normal amounts of soy (or milk or PCB or anything that  makes men afraid of turning into women) supplies.  

It's true that soy protein is preferentially used within the gut so less hits the rest of the body and muscles. That's why MPS isn't as strong with it, but not because of estrogen.  If you enjoy eating it, it won't hurt you.

People need to start with intro physiology and nutrition textbooks (available for like $1 used) and research reviews as a first step of getting a grasp. Reputable organisations publish lots of free nutritional materials for athletes and non-athletes.  Looking at individual studies are basically pointless. They assume you have the background and the depth to understand them. Reading the web is basically pointless except for a few choice sites. It's amazing what some bloggers can come up with. 

Well....imagine that i stop eating grains and legumes. What i have to eat instead of them? can anyone post an example of a day meals without them?

Note: I'M A POOR.

Thank you. 

AK87 said:

Well....imagine that i stop eating grains and legumes. What i have to eat instead of them? can anyone post an example of a day meals without them?

 

Note: I'M A POOR.

 

Thank you. 

I would rather imagine that you do continue to eat grains and legumes - especially if you are poor!

Soak the legumes overnight and cook well; cook the grains well - this destroys the majority of the anti-nutrients within them. As well, the body has its own defenses against anti-nutrients within the brush border of the intestine and the mucosa lining which is constantly refreshed. 

There can be problems with grains if you are gluten-sensitive. Determining that is another topic.  It's rare to be very sensitive to legumes (except peanut allergies which may be overstated). I don't eat large amounts of red kidney beans though as these have more difficult to destroy anti-nutrients. Or castor beans from which the poison ricin is derived! 

I've seen soy be an issue in just about everyone's diet who I have done a consult for. It always shows in the same way as well. There may not be a study for it yet, but I'm sure one day we will see more about it. Also, the soy here in America and most westernized countries is crap.

A day without grains and legumes for someone who is poor?

Organic grass fed meat and vegetables. That's it. It may mean you have to give up going to the movies with friends and buying the latest cars and clothes. But it pays off to remove the allergenic issues from your diet.

FiN, the estrogenic effects of soy are powerful enough to be used medically for menopausal symptoms. Having said that, there's very likely a huge difference between soy protein isolate and plain old raw textured soy protein. 

Regardless of the estrogenic issues, which may or may not have real merit (based heavily on dosage), soy protein is not cost effective when compared with whey. In the end, that's what matters to most people. We also have absolutely no idea what the GMO soy that is everywhere in the USA is doing to us. Could be nothing more than regular soy, but that tends not to be the case with GMO foods. Most of us don't realize that the FDA does not regulate chronic toxins. If something's ill effects occur over a period of years, and not days, weeks or months (perhaps even months is too long), that substance does not fall under the FDA mandate.

I've said before, and I'll say again, that if someone really wants to use soy protein then go ahead, but I don't think it should represent a large portion of one's diet. I do not recommend it, but I'm not going to virtual-arm wrestle someone over the issue. We've got bigger fish to fry.

Not all grains are terrible. Rice is good, and very cheap. Usually the cheapest source of carbs you can buy, actually. The color of the rice is not very relevant.

For interesting reading on phytic acid, which is the primary problem with even gluten-free grains, check this link:

http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid

It's a big page, but if you want the skinny on how to do things:

Eat greens with your rice. I am not messing with you.

Apparently some research in 2000 found that eating collard greens with brown rice completely counteracted the normal nutrient-binding that happens with phytic acid.

The more we learn, the more you will see that getting back to the basics I am recommending is literally the best way to go.

Do the best you can with what you have. You don't need to abandon all grains to be healthy (though I do think that going gluten free is a good idea if it can be done in your household), you just need to eat plenty of veggies with every meal ( with some greens at each meal).

Prometheus said:

(...) I think that soy is actually decendent from feces.

? What does that mean?

Josh, largely agree with your post but not sure I'd suggest going gluten-free as a rule. For one it's a major headache. Two, it can be a big expense. And also it can result in a delayed diagnosis for Celiac disease, as the biopsy may appear fine when not eating gluten.

But that said, some people are sensitive or intolerant without being Celiacs.  Like lactose intolerant they can

often eat a certain amount before exhibiting problems and keeping a lid on it is enough. And there are supplements, like latase is used by those with reduced lactase enzyme, such as n-acetylglucosamine - that normally binds to reduceactivity of lectins of which gluten is one.

Regarding soy, I am not an expert though the quantity, distribution and activity of androgen (*** hormone) receptors in males is different than in females. Soy might have an impact on females hormonal but not males. Here's one review of studies 

http://www.guymugrabi.com/soyresearch.pdf

It seems that the sexual developmental period is the critical time that soy should be avoided. Soy has a hormonal effect in pre-menopausal females (lowering estrogen levels!!)  but not in post menopausal women.

"[in men a] recent meta-analysis, which included studies that evaluated testosterone levels as a bio-indicator of risks for prostate cancer, suggested out of 32 reports that soy foods or isoflavone intake do not alter free testosterone levels (Hamilton-Reeves et al., 2010)."

As well, allergy issues are usually avoided by eating the fermented varieties, much like lactose intolerance is avoided by having the truly fermented milk products.

In modest amounts (all that we both suggest) soy can have cancer and heart protective benefits.

So again, I simply say if you like soy product and tolerate it, go for it. Protein or actual food. But I agree

it shouldn't be your main food or protein source.

It may not be a rule, but I haven't had someone drop gluten from their diet and not have various health markers improve. Maybe there is someone who gets something out of it but neither I or any of the other coaches I know have seen that.

Soy has more issues than the estrogen but regarding that topic, considering the "normal" levels of testosterone have been lowered because men have lower testosterone than their fathers fathers had, I'd say that doesn't let it off the hook.. I've also removed soy from many people and see the health of their thyroid become healthier if everything is correct. It's experience and not a study but that's where it starts off.

Alex, reducing junk food calories and increasing healthy fat intake is typically a large part of the improvement, but it's usually not necessary to go gluten free to get this. If they were actually sensitive but not truly Celiac, a simple reduction can be enough.   Avoiding highly processed, sugar rich foods is usually a good idea.

I do enjoy eating gluten free food  - just not exclusively. For variety another good gluten-free starch-rich carb is chestnuts, Not hard to prepare and rich in phytonutrients as well (eat the inner skin too).  Relatively low GI.

I don't know if men's T is that much lower, but that can be a ton of different things from social role change,

stress and cholesterol intake, plus environmental factors. Soya has been eaten for centuries.

Again, studies show no detectable impact to T levels from Soya in rational quantities.

I actually don't even bother with the whole "Celiac or not" debate anymore. I have had some many people drop their health issues from leaving it and get them back the day they decide to "cheat" that I simply start with removing it now. The fact that it is tied to sugar and processed food might be it, but the point is it gets better results in everyone I work with so what does it matter? Unless someone wants to be a test dummy and eat fried gluten without and sugar. And I don't have any volunteers for that yet. Science will have to catch up to my students and me. Not the other way around.

We use mostly rice flour to make things like that. My wife actually managed to make a rice flour lemon cake somehow. It was pretty good!

What do you describe as rational qualities? I prefer to remove it. It is one of many issues I believe. Keep in mind though, the people who see me are not interested in being "normal". Most of us are trying to hit a much higher level. One that soy doesn't come along with.

The difference between going gluten free and eliminating donuts is pretty big. I think it matters if your health improves because of the sugar and fried food reduction because it's a simpler fix that doesn't require a major lifestyle change.People who are Celiac get physically ill when eating gluten.  Why avoid completely if you don't have to? Just because people get sick from some things doesn't mean that everyone does. I am allergic to penicillin however you may not be and can have it. It may save your life and make mine miserable. Body chemistry isn't always black and white...

Regarding Soya, probably up to 100g / day. I generally prefer tofu and the "milk", as snacks or as filler in main meals. I personally don't eat that much every week- just if I happen to buy a tub of tofu or carton of milk. 

I wouldn't recommend soya for performance or MPS but it's not going to have a negative impact either. 

 http://www.solae.com/Soy-Markets/Sports-Nutrition/Know-the-Truth-About-Increased-Soy-Intake.aspx

Milk/meat proteins are better of course. But that's not the argument. It's whether it's intrinsically "bad". And it isn't. Nor gluten.  And there are heart and cancer health benefits to soy isoflavones as well. So I wouldn't blanket exclude it myself.

Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  I'm not going to defend it any further.

Agreed on the first point but what I am saying is both are an issue so I eliminate both and never look back. Why? Because both have shown to be an issue. No one wants to be my test subject after I remove it (because the first time they cheat is always the last) so I never bother with it.

There is a book called "The Whole Soy Story" that I believe you may find interesting. You may see that lowering it down to 30 grams changes something.

Not sure if anyone has read this but Nora Gedgaudas in her book Primal Body Primal Mind explains how doctors only diagnose celiac when all the microvilli in the gut is completely gone.

Plenty of people are probably walking around with a damaged gut without realising.  Even if they were tested the result would just come back negative anyway so they'd continue eating gluten thinking they aren't doing themselves any harm.

About 2 years ago I eliminated all grains.  Now I can't say for sure what the cause was, but a lot of random allergies, aches and pains have mysteriously disappeared since then.  I see absolutely no health benefits in adding them back in.

CraigR said:

Not sure if anyone has read this but Nora Gedgaudas in her book Primal Body Primal Mind explains how doctors only diagnose celiac when all the microvilli in the gut is completely gone.

 

Plenty of people are probably walking around with a damaged gut without realising.  Even if they were tested the result would just come back negative anyway so they'd continue eating gluten thinking they aren't doing themselves any harm.

 

About 2 years ago I eliminated all grains.  Now I can't say for sure what the cause was, but a lot of random allergies, aches and pains have mysteriously disappeared since then.  I see absolutely no health benefits in adding them back in.

Based on several friends' experience, that bit about the celiac is not accurate.

 I realize that every experience is individual, and my friends go to pretty good doctors, but blanket statements like that are really not a great idea.

There are definitely a lot of people with a lot of problems.

Are you aware that our removal of intestinal parasites from our guts has left us far more vulnerable to all kinds of inflammatory issues (which includes, to some degree, nearly every medical problem there is)?

I find that, while getting glutens out of the diet is certainly a reasonable step to take, and an effective one too, we are all pretty out of touch with what the true "ground state" of the human body throughout history has been. Something small, like avoiding even a few hookworms, may have severely compromised our health. Same goes for other pathogenic exposures.

A lot of this stuff is more complex than JUST diet and exercise, though they certainly have undeniably powerful effects on health and should NOT be ignored.

Not sure it's a blanket statement so much a a start. No one is saying remove gluten and become Wolverine. There are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed too. But it is a great start for just about everyone who has come in. And this is from someone who runs entire gut healing protocols and the like.

Alex Chubb said:

Not sure it's a blanket statement so much a a start. No one is saying remove gluten and become Wolverine. There are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed too. But it is a great start for just about everyone who has come in. And this is from someone who runs entire gut healing protocols and the like.

I think the blanket statement he referred to was the bit about all doctors not diagnosing celiac until x happens. I agree though, I don't see the problems some people have with removing gluten. Rice is cheaper than bread...