When To Go To Failure?

Hi !

I got a question about doing an exercise until failure. 

Ive read that some say that you always need to save something in the bank as in not going to failure.

And going to failure may increase the risk of injury aswell as the form of the exercise breaks.

But on the other hand some say that your Body struggles and that is the thing that makes you stronger because the last reps ( or seconds of the static position)  are the most important.

What is Your take on this ?

For example i did wall HeSPU for 5x3 ( stomach to wall ) and at the 4th and 5th set it got hard and i noticed that i was arching my lower back in other words my form broke down. And that evening i felt a little lower back pain which is not good. 

Should i make the exercise 5x2 until i build up strength without breaking form? Or going to failure at this exercise was ok?

Thank you !

You could call this going to failure with good form.

MrPuppeh said:

But on the other hand some say that your Body struggles and that is the thing that makes you stronger because the last reps ( or seconds of the static position)  are the most important.

Ultimate broscience.

Some bodybuilders like going to failure in their last set to "feel the burn" or anything like that. Let's say you're doing 3 sets of 10. If you were going to fail on the 9th rep of the 3rd set, and stop one rep before, then the 28 reps you just did were not valid?

Of course they were. They are in fact more important than the other two you could have done.

Also note that on complex movements especially going to failure drastically increases your recovery time, this in turn impacts how frequently you can training. Training frequency has a direct impact on your ability to learn new skills...notice the pattern..

The reason why some bodybuilders advocate going to failure is because for maximum muscle growth you must both recruit and fatigue the motor units. Training to failure is an attempt to fatigue the muscles and make the most hypertrophy gains. On the other hand, there are a number of reasons why you wouldn't want to go to failure:

• If you are training gymnastic skills, failure will mean your form deteriorates. Why would you want to practice a movement pattern or skill incorrectly?
• From a strength perspective, training to failure often will cause your nervous system to think you are straining to hard, and will reduce force output to protect the muscles. 
• Not training to failure allows you to train more frequently, which we lead to more efficient skill development. 
• When form breaks down, you are more likely to injure yourself.

Training to failure may have its place in bodybuilding, but for a gymnastic strength trainee it will not help you meet your goals.

The nervous system does not really function like that it does not restrict output in that way. Let's leave it at "Training to failure does not result in neural efficiency." The full answer is much more complex.

The last 2 points above are big ones.

Zach Armijo said:

It's not to say they aren't contributing to anything, but rather in gymnastic terms, you are promoting bad habits and if you haven't noticed, form is king. Hence the mastery of pre reqs with prefect form. Leave the piss poor form for crossfit if the number of reps is all that is important.

This depends heavily on definition of failure.

Some muscle or other has reached failure when you can no longer maintain good form, and for skill work this is the very definition of failure. Skill work DOES describe what we do, because we are looking for a specific shape or set of movement parameters.

When looking to improve the strength of whatever is limiting your progression, training to failure of good form (and not one second of bad form, if possible) is key.

When looking to improve efficiency in a skill, or refine execution, training to failure of good form is the wrong thing to do.

For this reason, until one has achieved perfect form I believe that training to failure should be limited to assistance work in which the prime movers can be performed to failure without loss of form.

This will tend to be simpler movements for many people, and even this work will probably take a bit of time before you can go to failure with good form.

divingpeanut said:

Ultimate broscience.

 

Some bodybuilders like going to failure in their last set to "feel the burn" or anything like that. Let's say you're doing 3 sets of 10. If you were going to fail on the 9th rep of the 3rd set, and stop one rep before, then the 28 reps you just did were not valid?

Of course they were. They are in fact more important than the other two you could have done.

This is not broscience.

Everything you do matters, but don't let you think that in a rep-for-rep comparison 5 sets of 5 reps, with only the last set performed to failure at the 5th rep, will get you the same results as 3 sets to failure with a load that leads to failure at the 5th rep at each set. You will get better results with the latter scheme. This has been demonstrated several times in research, and one study has shown that it takes 8-12 sets of non-failure to achieve the same growth as 3 sets to failure.

I do not know if you see the same amount of post-exercise weakness from EC uncoupling (junctophilin damage, mostly), but this definitely fits in with my personal experience as well as the research that's out there, though it is far from a truly complete body of research. There are a lot of inequities out there between studies, and this area of research is still very active.

This 3x to failure business isn't terribly easy to do with bodyweight, though I think that as we get more experienced, and can easily go from straddle to flat tuck to tuck [in a smooth continuum without form loss] as we get tired in a set, it becomes easier to accomplish without losing form. Slow negatives on the last known good rep help as well.

You will still get good results with 5x5, and it's much easier to do consistently, and will not leave you as tired or weak for the next day's workout, so for things we do here (and a 3x per week schedule) only the last set to failure (if any) is a more intelligent approach, particularly as you become more advanced and start working on more things.

It's all about your goals... if you want to use GB-style work specifically for bodybuilding, which you can absolutely do, you're going to need to focus on growth nutrition and failure.

If you desire all-around GB accomplishment, and if you want to be able to follow the program as it will be laid in the soon-to-be-released new versions, you won't be going to failure very much. It's a very good program.

 if you want to use GB-style work specifically for bodybuilding, which you can absolutely do

Is there a suggested protocol for this?

Joshua Naterman said:

If you desire all-around GB accomplishment, and if you want to be able to follow the program as it will be laid in the soon-to-be-released new versions, you won't be going to failure very much. It's a very good program.

Joshua - Is this soon-to-be-released new version the new book everyone is waiting for?  How soon?