Long Duration Stretching Or Short Duration?

Joshua Naterman said:

It doesn't have to be painful, and your body adapts pretty quickly. More than anything, it's boring. However, it does work!

 

I would only focus on one stretch at a time for long sessions, should you decide to adopt them as a training protocol, and spend regular time on everything else. Then, as significant progress is made over a few months, switch focus to another stretch and spend time there.

 

You have to be very careful with bridge and shoulder stretching, you can easily compress nerves and cause damage, so shorter duration stretches may be better for those. I know I have had issues with this, but I also have full cervical ribs on C6 and C7 so I can't exactly be used as any kind of predictive example for the general population. Nonetheless, I would approach with caution for shoulder opening stretches.

So the main idea is to work specifically for a certain stretch for example pike or bridge and hold it for 20-30 minutes one your hard stretching days.  While keeping everything else held for around 3 minutes. And as for the rest of the week, stretching 5-10 minutes on one your deficits while keeping everything else low in duration for maintenance? 

20-30 minutes of total work. It doesn't have to be one stretch could be 10. However the holds should be at least 30 seconds and as you get more 'warmed up' they can be a couple of minutes.

I have heard examples of stretches being held well over 10 minutes but that goes well beyond the scope of this discussion.  

i've found that work with contraction-relaxion technique doing 1-2 set for exercise lets to great result expecially if the set is very long (depending by the muscles that i'm stretching), breath correctly, learn to relax, learn how much squeeze your muscles during the contract phase in terms of force applied over the weight, how much contraction in terms of time, how to isolate your muscles by joints movement into the position and so on. i got the opportunity to talk with Kit about that, and really the results are coming. i was in a stalemate for about 7-8 months with my side split where i was 30-35 cm from the floor. only 3 weeks and i'm very near the side split. i find that focuse on intense stretching on some days has the same importance as the relaxation on the others.

same things was for the pancake position. this lets to immense progress over straddle L (you can see in the digital coaching) and other skills.

Yes. Proper application of Muscle Energy Techniques (like PNF) is very, very key.

Read Relax into Stretch by Pavel Tsatsouline, it's a very cool book about many stretching methods

Become familiar with Kit Laughlin and his work. Excellent, excellent stuff. Check his website as mentioned above...

Even better, he puts many of his stretches on youtube - youtube.com/kitlaughlin

The 'sale' is the 'practitioner hip flexor' stretch. Try it and you'll be sold.

(By the way, I met Kit at last May's GB seminar and was so impressed that he came to our gym last fall. He's coming back this fall. Excellent presenter, and like Coach, just an absolute wealth of knowledge.)

What are your thoughts of resistance flexibility + long duration stretching?

In my own experience, I've experienced some significant gains with Kit's method of stretching. I don't consider it long duration, but it doesn't need to be in my opinion. Nic Branson eluded to this when he said you hold the 'stretch' for about 30s - that seems to be the magic amount.

(As an aside, you can  out-wait your body's stretch reflex. It will eventually turn off. Try it with the middle split hold. Eventually the stretch sensation is gone and you can move deeper into it. However, I'm not promising you can get to full splits in 3 hours!! Is this what long duration stretching does...I don't know)

Kit's method, crudely described as contract relax, works because of the purposeful hold - around 30s for larger muscle groups - in the uncomfortable stretch position. This is when the brain learns that the new, deeper position is safe for the body. (Tension when stretching is your brain protecting you) One of the reasons yoga is effective is because of the emphasis on relaxation and breathing.

I also endorse two of Cole's statements - there is no one way! Find the way that works for you.

- And also to work active flexibility

Try some of Kit's stretches. I dedicate about 10=20 minutes each day and just stretch one or two parts of the body. I can hit about anything in a week. My flexibility has improved. This works for me - I don't have a lot of time to stretch. Having said that, I don't believe we need it.

Find what works for you. It's worth the experimentation. To amend what Cole said - there is only one way...the way that works for you!

And didn't you say you're close to the splits?!? If so, you're doing something right!

One think that should be clarified is that the more you use your mobility (what Kit refers to as limbering), the less hard stretching you really need.

Kit's work is superb, and is quite a bit more practical, more detailed, and in my opinion more effective than what is in Pavel's book. There's nothing wrong with Pavel's book, but it is not as good of an investment as Kit's book.

What Kit has put together allows  you to assess yourself for some very important things, like leg length discrepancies, and guides you step by step along the way.

You then get introduced to a very progressive full-body flexibility system that has a lot of clearly photographed and typed-out instruction for progressions with each stretch/exercise, along with commentary for you to figure out exactly what YOU need to be doing, so that you aren't wasting time on stretches you may not need (or may have outgrown).

What the Foundation series is for GST, Kit's material is for flexibility.

We used the hamstring stretches on one of the guys at the gym, and in about 10 minutes we took his seated pike from hands on the middle of his shins to fingers wrapped around his toes.

I can't recommend kit's work enough. I have heard only good things from the people who use it. I personally follow his stretch therapy and try to incorporate it in a training session on the weekends. I have found that using his stuff and limbering during the week will give tremendous flexibility in a short amount of time. I will also add in some static holds in the common positions to see how close I am and get the body used to the positions.

I was actually talking about Bob Cooleys method.

Joshua Naterman said:

One think that should be clarified is that the more you use your mobility (what Kit refers to as limbering), the less hard stretching you really need.

 

Kit's work is superb, and is quite a bit more practical, more detailed, and in my opinion more effective than what is in Pavel's book. There's nothing wrong with Pavel's book, but it is not as good of an investment as Kit's book.

 

What Kit has put together allows  you to assess yourself for some very important things, like leg length discrepancies, and guides you step by step along the way.

 

You then get introduced to a very progressive full-body flexibility system that has a lot of clearly photographed and typed-out instruction for progressions with each stretch/exercise, along with commentary for you to figure out exactly what YOU need to be doing, so that you aren't wasting time on stretches you may not need (or may have outgrown).

 

What the Foundation series is for GST, Kit's material is for flexibility.

 

We used the hamstring stretches on one of the guys at the gym, and in about 10 minutes we took his seated pike from hands on the middle of his shins to fingers wrapped around his toes.

Are you talking about Kit's "Stretching and Flexibility", or Kit's yet unreleased stretching series? If the latter, do you have any idea when it will be released?

I can't speak for things that are not released yet, but I am specifically referring to "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain, 4th Edition" which I borrowed from a friend. It's excellent.

I don't own "Stretching and Flexibility."

Joshua Naterman said:

I can't speak for things that are not released yet, but I am specifically referring to "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain, 4th Edition" which I borrowed from a friend. It's excellent.

 

I don't own "Stretching and Flexibility."

Ah, I found that but shied away from purchasing it because the material didn't look like it was targeted at athletes. Does the book go in depth on general topics like stretching technique and theory? How far do the exercise progressions go? Does it cover pike, bridge or dislocate flexibility? 

I'd have to go back and look when I get home to tell you the first part for sure, but I believe there is quite a discussion of stretching theory, and it's all pretty sound stuff. The majority of flexibility is neurologically and (we believe) fascially controlled, and I seem to remember a pretty good coverage of these topics in the book.

The book literally goes from head to toe, and there are (I believe, I'm sure Kit will correct me if I get this wrong) around base 50 exercises/stretches. Most of them have 3-4 progressions so that you can adjust each to your specific needs.

I think the book is written primarily for people in pain, as you can guess from the title, but it is an excellent stretching manual in its own right.

The other book is probably written in a style that more directly addresses gaining flexibility, but I haven't had a peek inside the covers so I don't know what the differences are.

I do feel safe recommending it even though I haven't seen inside it, because Kit is just immaculately professional and makes it very easy to understand exactly what you need to do.

When you read "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain" you will feel like you got more than what you paid for, honestly, and I see no reason why his other books wouldn't be similar.

I am unfamiliar, but just saw Bob's site.

 

From the sound of it, he is approaching flexibility from a similar perspective. I do not know anything about the quality of the products.

Edit: Bob does, however, come across as very new-agey. According to Amazon reviews, his book is something like 70% philosophy, with only two chapters dedicated to stretching.

Edit 2: A deeper review of Bob's site shows either a severe lack of understanding, or a deliberate series of lies and misdirections, regarding how the human body works and what happens when you stretch. I find it hard to comment further, because I prefer to refrain from actively talking down on things too heavily, and I don't see any way around that.

The bottom line is that you are much better off not wasting your time.

Just go get Kit's stuff, seriously.

Joshua, you're doing a great job of explaining Kit. He is to
flexibility what Coach is to GST - tremendously knowledgeable and (I
really like the way you put it) immaculately professional.

Both of his books are excellent. Kit offers two 'tracks' through his program - Stretch Teacher, for which Stretching and Flexibility are the textbook, and Stretch Therapist, for which Overcoming Neck and Back Pain is the textbook.

After meeting Kit at last May's seminar, we (my business partner and I) brought Kit to our gym for a seminar. It was amazing. He's coming back this fall.

Hari - Athletes are humans and Kit's book help humans, so therefore....Trust me, you will find a use for Kit's book and stretches. Take a look at his youtube page. He puts many of his stretches up there.

If Kit were based in the US and not Australia, I think he would be a household name in the fitness community. I can't say enough good things about Kit!

Mike Chomitsch said:

Joshua, you're doing a great job of explaining Kit. He is to

flexibility what Coach is to GST - tremendously knowledgeable and (I

really like the way you put it) immaculately professional.

 

Both of his books are excellent. Kit offers two 'tracks' through his program - Stretch Teacher, for which Stretching and Flexibility are the textbook, and Stretch Therapist, for which Overcoming Neck and Back Pain is the textbook.

 

After meeting Kit at last May's seminar, we (my business partner and I) brought Kit to our gym for a seminar. It was amazing. He's coming back this fall.

 

Hari - Athletes are humans and Kit's book help humans, so therefore....Trust me, you will find a use for Kit's book and stretches. Take a look at his youtube page. He puts many of his stretches up there.

 

If Kit were based in the US and not Australia, I think he would be a household name in the fitness community. I can't say enough good things about Kit!

Ok, I'm definitely interested. Which of "Stretching and Flexibility" or "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain" do you think would be more suitable for someone who's already quite flexible in many areas, but wants to improve for the sake of athletic performance? 

Hari_Seldon said:

Ok, I'm definitely interested. Which of "Stretching and Flexibility" or "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain" do you think would be more suitable for someone who's already quite flexible in many areas, but wants to improve for the sake of athletic performance? 

If you will go to the Kit's site - you'll find a description of Stretch Therapy practitioner:

Stretch Therapy practitioners may train in two disciplines:

• Stretch Therapist (using Stretch Therapy to treat neck, back, shoulder, arm and hand pain or as rehabilitation after other injury, based on the text Overcome neck & back pain by Kit Laughlin).
• Stretch Teacher (to teach Stretch Therapy, to prevent injury, increase performance and optimise wellbeing, based on the text Stretching & Flexibility by Kit Laughlin) usually in groups (class situation) or individually.

Joshua Naterman said:

I am unfamiliar, but just saw Bob's site.

 

From the sound of it, he is approaching flexibility from a similar perspective. I do not know anything about the quality of the products.

I don't think Kit gives dating advice in his books.

From Bob's website

But overshadowing these remarkable physical results was his landmark discovery that predictable personality upgrades occurred from increasing flexibility in specific areas of the body. In his second book The 16 Geniuses —Sixteen Genetic Personality Types he describes how from these unbelievable increases in flexibility, people find themselves reinventing themselves continuously, and creating accelerated rates of change in any aspect of themselves or their life.

 

Bob Cooley's discovery of the 16 types, is a new type-based foundation for psychology.

And finally, his identification of sixteen types of relationships, one of which is associated with your balancing type, the right type for a long-term intimate relationship is the pinnacle of his work. As Bob wrote in his third book Balancing Types for Intimate Relationships:

"Perhaps no one has ever known whom really to partner with — not native people unspoiled by civilization, kings, queens, emperors, tribal rulers, one's parents, religious philosophies, the most educated, nor match makers, or astrologists. Whom to partner up with is something that has always been more or less a guessing match until now.

Hari,

I suggest you ask Kit yourself. It's quite pricey (but well worth it) to have the books shipped from Australia.

http://www.pandf.com.au/contactus.php

(my guess will be Stretching and Flexibility)

Joshua Naterman said:

I am unfamiliar, but just saw Bob's site.

 

From the sound of it, he is approaching flexibility from a similar perspective. I do not know anything about the quality of the products.

I got his book from my gym teacher a few days ago. The only special thing is that he invented stretching while contracting that very muscle you're trying to stretch. In the first few chapters he explains how he found out and he shows us an exercise we can do to see how good it is (worked very well) and then the latter chapters, he shows 'resistance' stretches, which is basically stretching and contracting at the same time. It hurts less, and progress is bigger. You guys should check it out. Haven't tried Kit's method, will do maybe later.

Yaad Mohammad said:

I got his book from my gym teacher a few days ago. The only special thing is that he invented stretching while contracting that very muscle you're trying to stretch. In the first few chapters he explains how he found out and he shows us an exercise we can do to see how good it is (worked very well) and then the latter chapters, he shows 'resistance' stretches, which is basically stretching and contracting at the same time. It hurts less, and progress is bigger. You guys should check it out. Haven't tried Kit's method, will do maybe later.

There is nothing new there.

His website is full of non-sesnse, I do my best not to come out and publicly say stay away, but in this case there's no way I can let the GB Forum endorse this guy. There are too many other good sources out there, like Kit, that have their feet firmly on the ground to waste any time on what this guy is selling.

I don't see Kit saying his stretching will change your personality or find you the perfect life partner. I've know a plenty of people with perfect mobility there were complete jerks and stiff one's that were excellent people.

i suggest to you to but both the books....stretch and flexibility is very good. learning how to apply the correct C-R technique lets to important results. of course Kit provide a sort of process that will let to your to work over the basic and then move  to partial and complete poses!

Cole, that's all very true. I didn't endorse him. I didn't realize how full of new-age stuff his products are until I read Amazon reviews.

Important edit: Bob Cooley clearly has no idea what he is talking about. Don't waste your time, or money. He thinks fascia isn't innervated, which is about as far from the truth as anything can be. Virtually everything else he talks about is in direct contradiction with existing science, including new research, or is a complete mis-representation of what is actually happening when you stretch. His site is, essentially, a marketing gimmick.

The approach to the stretching itself may appear similar, but judging from Amazon product reviews, as well as the clear new-age metaphysical discussions that appear to comprise ~2/3 of Bob's book according to verified purchase reviews, there's no comparison between products. Quite a few complaints about difficulty learning how to actually apply things from Bob's books, particularly for people who don't have much experience with stretching, and the fact that only 2 chapters actually discuss stretching (as opposed to Kit's entire book). is pretty crazy. The reviews make it seem as though Bob's books are primarily him talking about his beliefs on life, with some stretching advice in the beginning. In addition, everything you "learn" about how "his technique" works will be grossly inaccurate. I do not advise doing this to yourself.

PNF came about in the 1940's and 50's. Cooley didn't invent that, if that is what is being claimed. http://www.ipnfa.org/index.php?id=113

Kit's products appear to be infinitely more useful for everyone, from total beginners who don't know anything at all to experienced health professionals. I've read the Neck and Back Pain book first hand, and I can confidently say that I don't think there is very much room for improvement. It is that good. You don't need any prior knowledge to take care of yourself with that book, but if you DO have some anatomical knowledge then you get even more out of it, and Kit does a great job of teaching you what you need to know in a very easy to digest way.

Kit's material is also the only material I am familiar with that actually presents PNF in exactly the way the research determined it was most effective.

Bottom line: I am ordering Kit's Stretching and Flexibility tonight. Don't waste your time, energy, or money on something that is full of nonsense.