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Started by Yaad Mohammad, January 20, 2013 · 55 Replies · 38,381 Views
Hi,
These few months I've always been stretching with 4 reps of around 10 seconds in each movement. But I was wondering what is better. Reps of 60 seconds or short reps of 10 seconds like I do now.
The reason why I prefer 10 seconds is because I can warm up in the first 2 reps. In the last 2 reps I'm in my max. Perhaps doing 2 sets of 10 sec and then 2 sets of 60 sec would be better?
I'm not that educated when it comes to mobility, so sorry if these are silly questions.
How "good" is your flexibility?
Personally I dont like short reps at all. I like to go from 30-60 seconds depending on how I feel. Do you use a specific Stretching technique like PNF?
Long stretches are categorically superior. You should already be very well warmed up before attempting any static stretching. In fact, it is best to stretch while wearing sweat pants/shirts, to keep your body very warm.
You should begin by simply moving as far into the ROM as you can do so comfortably. Once you start to encounter pain, stop. The goal is to slowly elongate your tendons, and when you have come close to maximal elongation, hold position for a good length of time (30s or so). To do this, slow your breathing. When you breath in, try to relax the muscles you are stretching. When you breath out, try to inch yourself a little deeper into the stretch.
You should only start timing when you've gotten to the point where you don't think you can go any deeper. Everything before that will result in only mild flexibility gains. It will take about 30 seconds just to get to this point, so a good stretch will take you at least a minute.
Badi said:How "good" is your flexibility?Personally I dont like short reps at all. I like to go from 30-60 seconds depending on how I feel. Do you use a specific Stretching technique like PNF?
Well, I can almost do a front-split again... that's really the only highlight of my flexbility.
jfslocum said:Long stretches are categorically superior. You should already be very well warmed up before attempting any static stretching. In fact, it is best to stretch while wearing sweat pants/shirts, to keep your body very warm.
You should begin by simply moving as far into the ROM as you can do so comfortably. Once you start to encounter pain, stop. The goal is to slowly elongate your tendons, and when you have come close to maximal elongation, hold position for a good length of time (30s or so). To do this, slow your breathing. When you breath in, try to relax the muscles you are stretching. When you breath out, try to inch yourself a little deeper into the stretch.
You should only start timing when you've gotten to the point where you don't think you can go any deeper. Everything before that will result in only mild flexibility gains. It will take about 30 seconds just to get to this point, so a good stretch will take you at least a minute.
I always stretch with sweat pants and a shirt. Problem is that I have a hard time warming up because I do my stretching at night. Does dynamic stretching help, like kicks?
Warming up isn't that difficult, especially if you put on a sweater. The goal is to literally warm your body; your tendons are easier to stretch when they're warmer. Doing some vigorous cardio for 5 minutes, like running in place, jump rope, or something similar should be plenty.
Dynamic stretching does not increase passive flexibility. Dynamic stretching is a technique you should use during warm-up for skill and strength work to prepare for active movements within your current range of motion. Its primary purpose is the prevention of injuries and helping performance. I don't think it's particularly helpful as a preparation for static stretches.
jfslocum said:Warming up isn't that difficult, especially if you put on a sweater. The goal is to literally warm your body; your tendons are easier to stretch when they're warmer. Doing some vigorous cardio for 5 minutes, like running in place, jump rope, or something similar should be plenty.
Dynamic stretching does not increase passive flexibility. Dynamic stretching is a technique you should use during warm-up for skill and strength work to prepare for active movements within your current range of motion. Its primary purpose is the prevention of injuries and helping performance. I don't think it's particularly helpful as a preparation for static stretches.
Thanks. Speaking of passive flexibility, what are good ways to build up active flexibility? I need it for dancing.
Yaad Mohammad said:Thanks. Speaking of passive flexibility, what are good ways to build up active flexibility? I need it for dancing.
First note that active flexibility is constrained by passive: you can never get better active than passive. Thus the first step is to make sure you have enough passive flexibility.
Building active flexibility is a kind of strength training. You just practice moving your limb to the edge of its ROM under its own power. It's most important to make sure that your muscles are working hard near the edge of your ROM, so that you can train them to exert force even when already mostly contracted.
Long stretch hold times will cause actual elongation of tissues.
Short hold times tend to cause greater elasticity of tissues, and in the shorter time ranges do not appear to cause much tissue lengthening at all.
dynamic ROM can be larger than passive or controlled active ROM due to the elasticity component, which is also why dynamic stretching is considered dangerous. You need to learn how to work into it slowly, and always know your limits, and ease in with each session.
If you're looking for maximum benefits, you need a minimum of 30 minutes of a specific stretch each day. One hour seems to be the goal for clinical lengthening of tissues, but in both cases this undoes the loss of ROM caused by "creep," and triggers tissue lengthening.
Rapid, repeated short range eccentrics also appear to lead to elongation of muscle via sarcomere series count increases.
PNF allows you to rapidly reach your current hard endpoint.
What you should keep in mind is this:
1) If you need longer muscles (for example, if your flexibility sucks) then you need to use something like PNF to quickly get to your endpoint, and then spend 30 minutes there.
2) You don't have to do all 30 minutes at once.
3) If you need more elastic tissues, you need to perform shorter duration stretches and start easing into dynamic stretching. SLOWLY.
4) If you need both longer AND more elastic tissues, you need all of the above.
Joshua Naterman said:Short hold times tend to cause greater elasticity of tissues, and in the shorter time ranges do not appear to cause much tissue lengthening at all.
3) If you need more elastic tissues, you need to perform shorter duration stretches and start easing into dynamic stretching. SLOWLY.
Can you be more specific on the times?
4) If you need both longer AND more elastic tissues, you need all of the above.
Take home message. There is no one right way, we need a combination of methods to maximise our resiliency and flexibility.
Care to elaborate on what "elastic tissues" mean exactly?
Also, if you were to spend 30 minutes in a certain stretch, how often would you need to do this to maintain or improve your flexibility? Everyday? Twice a week?
Joshua Naterman said:dynamic ROM can be larger than passive or controlled active ROM due to the elasticity component, which is also why dynamic stretching is considered dangerous. You need to learn how to work into it slowly, and always know your limits, and ease in with each session.
Are you sure that you haven't confused 'dynamic stretching' with 'ballistic stretching'? I've never heard of dynamic stretching being dangerous. It's a form of stretching used during warmup that consists of exercises like running with high knees. It hardly screams "danger".
Joshua Naterman said:1) If you need longer muscles (for example, if your flexibility sucks) then you need to use something like PNF to quickly get to your endpoint, and then spend 30 minutes there.
I think 30 minutes is a rather extreme recommendation. It's the amount you need if you want to gain flexibility as fast as humanly possible. If you are content to develop flexibility more gradually, 3 minutes a day is more than sufficient. It is enough, over the period of a few years, to develop enough passive flexibility for the splits or a pancake with full compression. For someone whose primary goal is supplementing GST, I don't think much more than 3 minutes per stretch per day would be productive.
Ehm, these are awesome tips but... what is PNF?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNF_stretching'>Proprioceptive Neurolomuscular Facilitation.
Cole:
The times are tricky, this is apparently a really hard thing to study in humans. My understanding of this is that it is very specific to function, but that in general static holds of any length are going to contribute to lengthening of tissues.
I have read that it took holds of at least 60s, and preferably 5+ minutes, to trigger significant tissue lengthening.
Shorter holds in the 10s and under range seem to give benefits a bit more similar to dynamic stretching (just a controlled form of ballistic stretching, really... it's all a continuum) in that you see increased elasticity of the tissues (as opposed to flat-out longer baseline tissue).
Research in physical therapy, which is discussed really nicely in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Skeletal-Muscle-Structure-Function-Plasticity/dp/0781775930 , is showing that just moving through a full range of motion for 30 minutes per day TOTAL, not necessarily in one block of time, is enough to completely undo tissue shortening from long-term immobilization in a shortened position. Lesser total times did not accomplish this goal.
For further stretch, this suggests (but does not prove) that 30 minutes of actually moving through the full ROM for a given joint is what it takes to get maximum improvements in motion.
Once you reach your current set-point for ROM... well, there's not much research there.
Anecdotal experiences from quite a variety of athletes, from dancers to fighters to performers, show that progress from that point on is slow, and that longer holds are what help the most.
I believe Kit has found that a bit less than this is required to see slow, steady improvements in people. I think this is pretty reasonable to believe, because none of us in real life are completely immobilized, so we don't see the same degree of gross restriction as a true immobilization patient.
The key is daily movement. Even one day of skipped stretching, or full ROM movement if you prefer that term to differentiate between long holds, has substantial effects. I've found that, for me, it takes 5-10 minutes to completely reverse them. Not too bad, but there's a big difference, for me, in doing light stretching every day through full ROM with 2-3 serious stretching sessions per week and just stretching 2-3x per week.
I also found that it's taken me about 5 weeks now to get to where I feel comfortable with really deep ROM extended holds. Everything is feeling very nice now, but in the beginning it was too much. I had to do a series of 1-2 minute stretches at the hard endpoint, but now I can stay there for 5-10 minutes no problem.
That's n=1, so take it as the anecdote it is 
jfslocum said:Are you sure that you haven't confused 'dynamic stretching' with 'ballistic stretching'? I've never heard of dynamic stretching being dangerous. It's a form of stretching used during warmup that consists of exercises like running with high knees. It hardly screams "danger".
I think 30 minutes is a rather extreme recommendation. It's the amount you need if you want to gain flexibility as fast as humanly possible. If you are content to develop flexibility more gradually, 3 minutes a day is more than sufficient. It is enough, over the period of a few years, to develop enough passive flexibility for the splits or a pancake with full compression. For someone whose primary goal is supplementing GST, I don't think much more than 3 minutes per stretch per day would be productive.
Well, ballistic stretching is the extreme fast end of dynamic stretching, and slowly moving into and out of ~full ROM positions is the extreme slow end. It just means taking the joint through a full or near-full ROM repeatedly, without pause.
It takes a long time to build up the speed, but you can definitely do "ballistic stretching" safely if you take the time to SLOWLY increase speeds. Without that preparation, it's an awful idea, and for the general population it is inappropriately risky for this reason. In my opinion
I've seen people get hurt doing high knees. It's not common, but it happens, and it's usually when they've never done anything fast before. Depending on the person's movement history and initial range of motion, there's quite a range of possibilities for risky dynamic stretch speeds.
As for the 30 minutes per stretch, well... It's definitely ideal, and definitely not realistic for everyone (or even most people). We have too many other things we need that time for, and I think choosing the "right time" is all about proper goal setting.
I think that whatever a person's biggest deficit is, usually pike, should be given at least 10 minutes per day, and other things like figure 4 variations given the ~3 minutes you recommend. If someone has decent pike flexibility but really poor figure 4 flexibility (hip external rotator stretch) then that's where they need to spend the most time until they have pretty good flexibility. At that point, I think it would be wise to just do 2-3 minutes per side on that, 3 minutes on side splits, 3 minutes on hip flexors per side, and then spend 10-15 minutes each on pike and bridge progressions.
Personally, I'm not worried about bridge because I have extra bones in my neck (bilateral fully formed cervical ribs at C6 and C7) that are currently (I think) contributing to neurological symptoms I get when working on shoulder flexion, which is required for bridging (and handstands), so I spend less time on that and more time on pike and direct handstand work. If I never have a perfect bridge, that's fine. I'm not going to have neck surgery to get a better bridge or a perfect handstand. That's just silly, and I'm also very likely the only person on this forum with that particular issue(according to statistics).
For me, strap high bar tap swings are the best thing for my shoulders, along with handstand work, so that's where I spend my time. I consider those swings to be in the same class as loaded stretches, and Daniel can tell you that I tend to stay on the bar for 60 seconds at a time for a few sets. It really helps a lot, and I wish to GOD I had one of those strap bars at home... I can only get to the gymnastics gym like 2-3x per week.
As a result, I've seen very slow improvement in my shoulder flexibility but very rapid improvement in my pike, which is very close to the best it's ever been after 5 weeks of stretching. My seated pike IS the best it's been in my life, going by true hip flexion. I have spent, on average, 30-50 minutes per day. I'd say about 50% of the progress was made in the first day of stretching, during which I spent 2 hours doing pike stretches. I did submaximal, maybe 80-90% of ROM, holds for 10-20 minutes at a time, extending my hard end feel for about an hour. The last hour was spend doing 1-2 minute stretches at the hard end point, with 1 minute breaks.
I watched anime the whole time that day.
I am just basing what I am doing off of what I know works for physical therapy patients, and so far it's going fantastically well.
I have, so far, not paid much attention to other stretches, but am starting back with hip flexors, straddle pike, and figure 4 stretches to keep my body balanced. I actually achieved enough flexibility increase to notice a distinct difference in hip tilt due to relatively tighter hip flexors.
Joshua Naterman said:Research in physical therapy, which is discussed really nicely in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Skeletal-Muscle-Structure-Function-Plasticity/dp/0781775930 , is showing that just moving through a full range of motion for 30 minutes per day TOTAL, not necessarily in one block of time, is enough to completely undo tissue shortening from long-term immobilization in a shortened position. Lesser total times did not accomplish this goal.
You're leaving away part of the story here. The experiment was done on rats with no previous tissue shortening. Their limbs were immobilized in a shortened position and the cast was taken off for 30 minutes of moving through full ROM. If anything, the study showed that 30 minutes is long enough to maintain full ROM, not necessarily to regain it.
A couple of good points Josh. I'll have to find a way to get that book. looks like a real gem.
There is certainly a difference between maintenance stretching and improvement stretching.
Maintenance can be done for short durations and on many times a week, or even daily.
If you're working on getting more ROM past a limit point, that in my experience takes much more work. I honestly don't think the 30 minute mark put out is all that bad, though I wouldn't want to give it a hard number, I can say I personally put in that much and often more to get results.
I really don't believe that you can make gains with only a few minutes a day, but you can maintain, or if you are just far from the limit point you can move towards it, with a few minutes a day.
Otherwise, you need to do some longer active/static holds, and NOT on a daily basis. This kind of stretching can and will make you sore, and at this point I don't believe there is any benefit in hard stretching while sore from previous stretching. However maintenance work is fine.
I personally also don't believe in going to that place where the stretch feels horrible. Since getting to the limit is largely neurological, fighting yourself doesn't help this. Do a few easier stretches, and when it gets uncomfortable come out, shake it out and go again. Once you get to the point you're at your previous limit comfortably its time to hold a while and actively work for more ROM, without overly forcing.
Breathing is a huge key, if you can't breathe normally, then don't try to push further, your nervous system is fighting you. Get a clear breath and more often then not the ROM will leap forward on its own, till you hit your limit point. Once there, with a clear breath, it's just a patience game and usually not that miserable to work on. I always enjoyed it to be honest.
Now, when I saw Coach recently, he told me some interesting stories about Kit's method which left me very intrigued as he seems to be able to get some impressive gains very quickly indeed and from difficult people. I'm looking forward to learning more.
I've always gone by working to the tension and not through it. Breathing and some holding of that tension will typically lead to relaxation and allow deepening of the stretch. Most inhibition as has been said is neurological and ROM has to be relearned. Believe much of it to be Spindle and GTO reset and simply relearning a range is safe. Greatly increased range can require fascial changes, this is for extreme ROM in most cases.
Kit's methods have some damn good results. I'm certainly not going to speak for him, I really need more info in his methodology.
Like anything movement is a learned or in reality for things like ROM typically remembered. Look at the limberness of young kids. You could be fighting years of bad habits and deficiency. Not going to be fixed overnight at least no in any type of lasting fashion.
Cole Dano said:I really don't believe that you can make gains with only a few minutes a day, but you can maintain, or if you are just far from the limit point you can move towards it, with a few minutes a day.
You can; I have.
Cole Dano said:
Cole Dano said:I personally also don't believe in going to that place where the stretch feels horrible.
Well there's your problem 
Cole Dano said:
Cole Dano said:Breathing is a huge key, if you can't breathe normally, then don't try to push further, your nervous system is fighting you. Get a clear breath and more often then not the ROM will leap forward on its own, till you hit your limit point. Once there, with a clear breath, it's just a patience game and usually not that miserable to work on. I always enjoyed it to be honest.
This I agree with, except that in my opinion, you'll get more out of the stretch if you're willing to accept more pain.
Cole Dano said:Now, when I saw Coach recently, he told me some interesting stories about Kit's method which left me very intrigued as he seems to be able to get some impressive gains very quickly indeed and from difficult people. I'm looking forward to learning more.
Please pardon my ignorance, but who is Kit?
jfslocum said:You can; I have.
Well there's your problem
This I agree with, except that in my opinion, you'll get more out of the stretch if you're willing to accept more pain.
Please pardon my ignorance, but who is Kit?
Kit Laughlin
Joshua, Cole, or Nic - I'm curious, if one was concentrating on only one position (side split for example), do you think that the accumulative ~30 minutes a day would best be optimized if it were practiced as a collection of stretches more or less targeting the same muscle groups rather than simply 30 minutes accumulative of the same position?
Yes Patrick, and that's essentially the way it's being done in yoga.
However, like anything, I'd say moderation is best, keep it down to five or six variants maximum, and work with quality not quantity.
Also keep in mind, if you are building a program, there is much to be said for inserting a lighter stretch in the opposite direction between the deeper stretches.
Cole Dano said:...Breathing is a huge key, if you can't breathe normally, then don't try to push further, your nervous system is fighting you. Get a clear breath and more often then not the ROM will leap forward on its own....
Cole Dano said:Also keep in mind, if you are building a program, there is much to be said for inserting a lighter stretch in the opposite direction between the deeper stretches.
When "timing" my stretches I go by number of deep breaths, not seconds. This forces me to focus on deep diaphragm breathing. Generally, I shoot for minimum 5 long, slow deep breaths. In a forward pike I go to ~75% of max, breathe in deeply expanding to fill my diaphragm, and then fold over to max. This brings the stretch internal literally, love that. I can totally feel my back ribs stretching out. Priceless.
I'm a big fan of the opposite stretch mentioned above. ie: low lunge followed by hurdle stretch and/or low lunge followed by half split. Great combos.
Interesting research, Sliz. However, I will use your name to blame when I tell the gymnasts they gotta put 5-15 minutes a stretch. I know they do it in ballet and it's bloody horrid painful.
Thing is that sort of duration is very hard to program into a lot of gymnastics programs. I'm thinking it could be. And I would probably be hearing lots of complaints from the kids and their parents.
Even if we rotated the three splits, bridge, pike, and shoulders that is a lot of time.
Think 10-20 minutes per one or two a session ( 2 if 3 days a week, 1 if 6, etc). Then add in another 3-5 for the 4 or 5.
Sounds like 30 minutes a session to 45 minutes.
And a lot of little tears in the 6-8 year olds.
It doesn't have to be painful, and your body adapts pretty quickly. More than anything, it's boring. However, it does work!
I would only focus on one stretch at a time for long sessions, should you decide to adopt them as a training protocol, and spend regular time on everything else. Then, as significant progress is made over a few months, switch focus to another stretch and spend time there.
You have to be very careful with bridge and shoulder stretching, you can easily compress nerves and cause damage, so shorter duration stretches may be better for those. I know I have had issues with this, but I also have full cervical ribs on C6 and C7 so I can't exactly be used as any kind of predictive example for the general population. Nonetheless, I would approach with caution for shoulder opening stretches.