Victorian Coaching, Ideas And Suggestions

Hello, I am a huge fan of this digital coaching section. Pretty brilliant way to get help from people who know better

There's not a hefty amount of guidelines or progressions available for this element and some digital coaching would come in handy! In the vid I tried my progress with the unsupported, full on Victorian (only using one leg because that's the progression I want to work on) and I try to stay diligent about keeping my elbows locked out and scapulae retracted

Suggestions or trial and error-style advice would be awesome, I'm thinking I'm still not ready for a real-deal one leg VC yet, and should maybe focus more on flat tuck or foot supported variations?

Cheers

Have you tried the standard 'tuck->advanced tuck->straddled/stagged->full' progression? It looks like you could probably do an advanced tuck.

Hi Mirrorredrain. Here I am again. Your favorite DM salesman. Just kidding. But, serious;y. You will have to find a way that allows you to get in the Victorian position and hold it for at least 5 seconds (so you "hit" the right muscle groups and can learn "feel" the position, instead of failing/falling before you get there). With the method that you are showing, that does not happen and it will be a long time before it happens, whether in tuck or flat tuck. You probably can hold 75% of your body weight in a tucked Victorian. So, see if you can start there. How? I have no idea... But wait, I do have an idea.... DM!!!!!!

I think you would have been able to lean into position if you used tuck.

Thanks you guys :-) ill revisit the tuck versions (no matter how awkward they feel) as I continue to work the one leg. by the way, what's the science behind that? To do a true tuck VC your entire weight is essentially on the opposite side of your hands. Doesn't this make it potentially more difficult than one leg or full lay variations? I've fooled around with tuck VC's and every time I do it I end up shifting into a V cross looking move because my triceps and shoulders seem unable to support the position without the counter balance of my legs.

And FritsMB, don't think I'm ignoring your continued DM suggestions! It's just that right now I'm quite strapped for cash. IWouldn't be able to buy one, or the parts for one for a while

also I might have forgotten to mention it to you but awhile ago I sort of improvised my own pulley system with a cable and a backpack attached to one end. The other end I would attach to my belt. I put two 10 lb dumbbells in it for a little counterweight and was able to hold a full lay Maltese no problem and a full lay VC as well, but with slightly plked hips. The pulley setup just was wayyy too complicated to attach to myself, and it always took another person and caused some pretty cruel wedgies haha! So I ditched that idea. A dream machine would be useful to see where I am.

Well, tucked VC is going to require much wider arms and use the muscles quite differently.

Have you tried putting your calves or hamstrings on top of the ladder instead of your feet? That might allow you to do proper VC leans, so to speak, that will allow for proper muscle activation. As you get stronger you should be able to either move the ladder closer to the feet, use 1 foot at a time, simply use less pressure on the ladder, or a combination of the above.

Of course, you could also just use bands under your butt or back and attached to the top of the rings. Just saying In the end, this is probably your best bet for assistance. You may need heavy bands.

Thanks you guys! Yep, my mom is a ballet instructor and dabbles in pilates so she has plenty of thera-bands that I'll try out. As for the foot supported versions here is more or less my progress. I always strive for locked out elbows and a normal grip as opposed to false.

I'm thinking a mix of training supinated versions as well as foot supported leans for TIME will be beneficial. I can only hold a foot supported version for several seconds at best. Hell, it took me months to build up to doing full on foot supported versions for any time, so working it for longer holds should come slowly but should help.

I figure, the Victorian is quite a specific strength.. isn't it? So, there can't be too much to do other than a spotted Victorian.

I can't imagine how slow its got to be, but its pretty darn cool that you can even hold a foot supported one. Best of luck for your progression!

Mirrorredrain. After looking at your last video, I suggest that you support your legs higher up (i.e. at knee level or maybe even higher; just experiment). Then (using your cross trainers) go into the Victorian position (as in the video) and try to lower slowly into (more of) a front lever position (piked because of your legs being supported). From that position push back with straight arms into a Victorian position (you can use your leg support and core to assist). If you can start doing that, say, 3x slowly, I think you will have another method to build the necessary strength. You can make it harder by moving your leg support farther out and of course by increasing the lever with your cross trainers.

I forgot to mention that I do the same exercise on my DM (i.e. with half my weight plus support around hip level). I can't get up from a FL position yet but can now lower down slowly holding a 3-4 seconds two or three times before getting in FL position. I have no victorian aspirations but think that this type of training will help increase my full lay FL strength. I am curious to hear what your experience will be.

Caveat: I know nothing about actually coaching victorians... That said, I would recommend practicing the movement with correct body form (ie. fully extended) and using stretch bands to reduce the load. Stretch a band from ring to ring, grab hold, and step onto the band. This is also a way to practice assisted cross-pulls.

A.J. said:

Caveat: I know nothing about actually coaching victorians... That said, I would recommend practicing the movement with correct body form (ie. fully extended) and using stretch bands to reduce the load. Stretch a band from ring to ring, grab hold, and step onto the band. This is also a way to practice assisted cross-pulls.

Attaching the bands to the rings would not be very helpful for the victorian due to the positioning of the arms in relation to the body. You are horizontal in a good victorian. Band assisted exercises are more useful in vertical elements where the force is applied in direct opposition to the load.

FritsMB said:

I forgot to mention that I do the same exercise on my DM (i.e. with half my weight plus support around hip level). I can't get up from a FL position yet but can now lower down slowly holding a 3-4 seconds two or three times before getting in FL position. I have no victorian aspirations but think that this type of training will help increase my full lay FL strength. I am curious to hear what your experience will be.

Im not a huge fan of the dream machine for any horizontal elements. I use it for crosses, butterflies and reverse muscle ups but found the balance is way off for the levers. I can hold a back lever on the rings but on the dream machine find it very awkward and I usually pike. Same goes with front lever. I guess if you are used to correcting for this then it would be very beneficial but I like spotted positions much more.

I agree, it took me a while to get used to for example stay balanced in planche pups on a DM (or going from a maltese to a planche). It does not even come close to the balance required for the levers themselves. But I have found it allows me to focus on certain muscle groups in a way that the "standard" progressions don't. Nowadays, I do the standard progressions one day and my DM exercises the next day. So far, with this approach I have gained strength in areas where I was struggling before. Not for everybody though. Well, maybe for Mirrorredrain, because he likes to try different things and I definitely would like to help him, if I can.

Yes using bands has been decently helpful so far, but Daniel and Joshua are correct. You need to connect them to at least the tops of the rings to get the proper tension, otherwise they sort of just hang out beneath you and thanks Frits, I appreciate the help. I'm still gonna buy a dream machine somewhere down the line (hopefully soon) even if just for rehab and maybe hypertrophy. Thank you A.J. and HollowDevl for your contributions too!

I have done assisted FL-VC pulls and I liked how they felt. I used ~100 lbs of assistance from my counterweight system. They are, I think, potentially useful.

Edit: They are also probably something you can do with bands when attaching them to the ring tops. For things like this, I do think that a counterweight is better for development because you always have a known amount of assistance and no more.

Adding in my experience, I also find that counterweight-assistance/dream machine isn't very useful for horizontal exercises unless you're at the point where you're getting very close (<=25# assist). At 50 or 100 pounds, the balance is so far off that you're working a very different movement and it won't translate very well to the unassisted pose. There's also something about having your hips so strongly supported that makes it difficult to properly engage the muscles.

When I first started training I was using large amounts (50-75#) of counterweight to hold and press out of various poses. My progress was very slow: it took me about a year to go from a #50 maltese to a #40 maltese. When I switched to unassisted exercises (maltese block press), I went from #40 to #15 assist in about a year. That said, counterweight assistance is a good way to track your progress, since you have a continuous numeric value to measure, and I find that it works reasonably well for exercises where I'm strong enough to use smaller amounts of weight.

You may not have the equipment for it, but if you could do negative victorian block presses that would probably be very helpful. Or on the grass you could try to slowly lower to the ground from a candlestick. If you don't have a manna yet, that might also be a good medium-term goal.

I work FL=>VC pulls with my trainers and will start using bands to see how that feels. things like box presses and pbar Victorians are good for overall conditioning, but I don't feel they apply much towards a rings VC. I have a decent but short VC that I can do using my and my brothers beds, and with some wrist support (similar to Sai's in the community forum I believe). However, using narrow hand width and stationary support like this makes it vastly easier than what I'm trying to build to.

The problem with this type of VC training is that it is biomechanically different from a rings VC. With the pbar and wrist support for one thing, your biceps are at an extreme advantage in comparison and you'll pretty much certainly use bent arms. Using the leverage at your wrists, it becomes more a pulling exercise with the biceps very active. A rings VC, depending on several factors (how much you internally rotate the humerus, false or normal grip, how much the hands are in line with the body, locked out elbows, etc...) has a lot of pushing/pulling to it, and feels very different from the pbar or box press VC.

As for the manna, awhile back I put some focus into it, and made some progress. My hamstrings are very inflexible and I didn't work the element as long as I should have, but I got what was essentially a tucked leg manna with hips a little below shoulder level. I should supplement my training with the manna HMSH more

And what is a candlestick again? Is it where you lie on your back but only your arms and shoulder blades make contact with the ground? If so, here's what I can do...I was lying in bed after a workout one night, and decided to try and press into a fake VC just for fun. I can basically go from lying supine, retract my scapulae and lock out my elbows, and lift so that only my arms and shoulder blades are resting, and my hips and legs are suspended. I can upload a vid if necessary...

mirroredrain said:

I work FL=>VC pulls with my trainers and will start using bands to see how that feels. things like box presses and pbar Victorians are good for overall conditioning, but I don't feel they apply much towards a rings VC. I have a decent but short VC that I can do using my and my brothers beds, and with some wrist support (similar to Sai's in the community forum I believe). However, using narrow hand width and stationary support like this makes it vastly easier than what I'm trying to build to.

To translate well, a block-victorian, like a block-maltese, should be performed with the arms away from the body, as in the actual hold.

And what is a candlestick again? Is it where you lie on your back but only your arms and shoulder blades make contact with the ground? If so, here's what I can do...I was lying in bed after a workout one night, and decided to try and press into a fake VC just for fun. I can basically go from lying supine, retract my scapulae and lock out my elbows, and lift so that only my arms and shoulder blades are resting, and my hips and legs are suspended. I can upload a vid if necessary...

That's impressive. See if you can amp up the difficulty by widening your arms.

Thank you my friend. I'm assuming that is called a candlestick. I'll try yor suggestion

mirroredrain said:

And what is a candlestick again? Is it where you lie on your back but only your arms and shoulder blades make contact with the ground? If so, here's what I can do...I was lying in bed after a workout one night, and decided to try and press into a fake VC just for fun. I can basically go from lying supine, retract my scapulae and lock out my elbows, and lift so that only my arms and shoulder blades are resting, and my hips and legs are suspended. I can upload a vid if necessary...

That's so cool! Were your legs straight or piked and how wide was your arm placement. It sounds similar to block victorians.

Thanks! Maybe I'll keep working on that exercise... my arms were probably about a foot and a half away from either side of my quads when I did it, and I think that my body was pretty hollow, maybe a little piked. Unfortunately I'm one of the apparently many people who's come down with the flu this winter season so I won't be doing anything for a little while. Every muscle in my body is screaming out, you know how flus can be. I think otherwise I would record a video for analysis or something. Maybe in a week or so...until then I'm gonna lay low.

Good decision! Get well rested first! Did you find them to be an effective or useful exercise?

Thanks man. And no, simply because I only ever did it once I did find pressing into a Maltese the same way was easier though haha. I'll have to keep using the exercise to see if it will help. Of course, you have lots of support on your arms in it, so the most ill use it for is probably supplementary stuff, mainly for my core. I'm assuming that my focus on the VC on rings is what allowed me to do it on my first try anyway.