The Book and Program design?

Hey got my book the other day, really impressed with it. I love the detail and information, these progressions should keep me going for a very long time lol thanks a lot coach

My 2 training goals are planche and front lever and I just have some questions on program design -

I cant find any mention on how many exercises to include in a training session?

Do you cover each movement plane in each session or would you split it into vertical/horizontal?

I just still have no clue on how to arrange the exercises into a structured routine :roll: I understand what you say about pairing exercises and focusing on different movements each session but then say If i focused on Rows one session, how many exercises would be devoted to rows in comparison to other movements?

A basic example or two for us to build on or some kind of workout template would have been a bonus in the book. Eg, this is dave and his training goals are planche and a front lever. Dave trains mon,tue,thu,fri.........(other few details)......This is what dave's routine is....blah blah blah (then breif notes relating elements of daves training and why things were chosen to the relevant sections of program design in the book)

That would (for me) just make it a hell of a lot easier to break down and understand

Regards

Yes I agree with the above, there is allot of info in the book great stuff and the progressions are done in great detail. I still though am confused a little on how to structure a program to include the two aspects for basic strength so i get the progression I desire.

The first place I guess is to pick a training goal, can you have 3 or 4 exercises you want to achieve or would it be better to stick to only one? Also at what point do you decide to move on to the next progression of that exercise? Is it subjective or does anyone have a specific metric that can be applied to the progression like a time you can hold it for etc??

Any advice to help in the making of a decent training schedule would be very welcome.

Cheers

It is spelled out as for static holds that once you can do the current one for 15-20 seconds and the next progression for about 3 seconds, it's time to go the next one. For isokinetic exercises ( movements through a plane of motion ), it's 5 reps.

I didn't think this was about reps and time per se, but about actual exercise selection. This seems to touch on what I was referring to in my thread when I was talking about exercise pairings and knowing which to pair and when.

If all somebody wanted was a static hold, the book is very detailed about how to progress through the given series. But since best results are obtained through the combination of the FSP and FBE movements most of us are going to look to integrate the two as suggested. The problem, is that there isn't much defined for how to integrate the two types together, leaving at least some of us at a loss as to the preferred way of doing so.

- Chris

With regards to moving onto next progressions, my tuck lever I can hold for about 45 seconds so I have moved onto adv tuck which I can hold for about 20. But im going to stick to that till I can hold it for about 40 seconds because straddle still seems a huge jump between the two.

Same with planche, I can hold tuck planche for 20 seconds max but my adv tuck planche is awful so im going to do an 8 week cycle of tuck planche before moving on. And after a few cycles and reaching around 30-40 seconds on adv tuck planche i will see how straddle feels although I think a small weight belt in the adv tuck position may be a useful inbetween for a cycle or 2!

The question still stands about program design though, numbers of exercises, types chosen etc?

Should I be looking to include an exercise from most sections spread out over the 4 days training?- row, pull up, dip, press up, hs press up, MPPV, legs, core, lower back?

I found the Weekly Scheduling section on pages 175-176 to be quite clear. It even has examples of how to pair exercises. Combined with the Integrated Training section on page 178, made it pretty easy for me to put together a solid M,T,Th,F plan. The set and rep schemes are all well explained on page 175 and there are more options for mixing things up, if you like, on the following pages. I really found Coach Sommer's section on Steady State training to be eye opening and realized that I'm pushing myself too hard too often. Although the book doesn't have any sample training routines, it has all of the information needed to put together a solid plan with some thought and effort.

I am very happy with the book and DVDs and grateful that this information is available for such a reasonable price! Looking forward to The Handstand Chronicles, and Liquid Steel™!

The forthcoming WODs will address all of these exercise selection issues for you. I will begin posting them in the next week or so.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Ok so tell me if im along the right lines, I havent decided on exercises and exercise placement yet! -

Monday

Static skill training

Vertical pulling

vertical pressing

Multi plane pulling

Squats

Dips

Curls

Abs

Tuesday

Static skill training

Horizontal pulling

Horizontal pressing

Multi plane pressing

Pistols

Dips

Curls

Lower back

Thursday

Static skill training

Vertical pulling

vertical pressing

Multi plane pulling

Deadlifts

Dips

Curls

Abs

Friday

Static skill training

Horizontal pulling

Horizontal pressing

Multi plane pressing

Pistols

Dips

Curls

Lower back

Ive tried to include something to cover everything whilst still trying to pair the right movements together.

Is this ok, or too much?

Should I alternate dips and curls instead of having them both each day to get rid of one exercise?

The routine you've outlined sounds like a bit much to me (unless your experience tells you otherwise). The book recommends that you choose one pull, one press (or a CPP for both pull and press), one leg exercise, and one core exercise per training session. In your Monday routine, you've got 3 pulling movements (vertical, multi-plane, and curls) and 2 pressing movements (vertical pressing, and dips). If you are going to train the whole body 4 times per week, it's probably not necessary to train so many angles per session. Keep in mind that bodybuilding type routines of bombing and blitzing muscles from multiple angles usually call for training each muscle group once per week. I'd think that if you chose challenging exercises, then the following, with static training integrated as described on page 178, would be plenty for Monday. The rest of the week would be similar, but with different planes/angles.

Monday

(static strength exercises integrated with the following)

--------------------------

A1: vertical pulling

A2: vertical pressing

--------------------------

B1: squats

B2: v-ups

Hope that helps!

Jason:

I disagree. IF the bulk of your time is spent skill training (such as in gymnastics) and you only end up with an hour for strength and conditioning or less depending what you did (if your coach puts it at the end) then you do what you can. Fatigue from the amount of skill training can be limiting as well. From my experience in gymnastics (although a lot less structured than Coach Sommer's kids), you are only able to do maybe one of each exercise like that.

On the other hand, the vast majority of us that are ONLY doing limited skill work + mostly strength and conditioning can do a bit more especially once you have been properly conditioned. My personal recommendation is 2 of each (legs, pressing, pulling, core if need be) along with skill work if the work is limited. For example, if you're doing 5x5 or more, sometimes that is enough volume. But if you're only doing 3x5 then that's fairly limited pressing work and you might need to add some more volume to stress the muscles enough to elicit CNS and muscular adaptations.

There are some exceptions though such as extremely high intensity strength work with negatives (such as with OAC) where you'd want to get <10-15 reps per session... but generally with strength the window of about 20-50 reps per pressing or pulling or legs has served me pretty well. So potentially 3x5 for 2-3 exercises or something along that line.

-----------------------------

As far as routines go that looks fine to me. Although There are more pushing than pulling (because of the dips) which I would rectify unless you just suck on dips and need to do more. Imbalances in the shoulder aren't anythign you want to mess with. Might need to add another legs exercise too.. such as sprinting or something.

I hope those curl variations are the ones from Coach Sommer's book.

Jason:

Your short summary makes sense, but where I am at a loss is ... we are supposed to pair movments with each other, so as not to waste time (e.g. A1 and A2 in your sample routine). Yet when integrating the static positions we are supposed to train the static holds prior to the appropriate exercises - how does it work in that case: both before, both after, in between? And how does a single CPP exercise fit into that scenario?

- Chris

braindx,

If you count the static exercises that are integrated into the routine, it really amounts to 8 exercises instead of the 4 listed. Done for 3-4 sets each, this comes out to 24-32 sets total. This is plenty for me, and would correspond to a something I could do in under 40 minutes. Combined with my warm-up, basic tumbling (read very basic ), handstand or press handstand work, and finishing off with prehab and/or stretching, comes out to around 1 1/2 hours for me. I understand this may sound easy, or like very little to more advanced trainees, but it's plenty for me and probably for many people. Anyway, I think it's good to start off with a basic, balanced routine, and then add to it if needed, slowly over time.

Chris,

My impression was that the static movements are to be done within the routine, for example:

---------------------------------

front lever variation

vertical pull

planche variation

vertical press

---------------------------------

back lever variation

squat

l-sit variation

v-ups

---------------------------------

where each block could be repeated, say 3-5 times

I guess for a CPP, I'll try doing a couple static movements for each CPP set.

Thanks for the reply's guys really getting somewhere now

Braindx, yes the curls in my routines are the ones from coach sommers book of course lol!

I could get rid of dips to even it out, but then would the other exercises be sufficient enough for the triceps?

I could also take out the multi plane pulling movement? I was going to do a few sets of front lever pulls/ice cream makers to aid my front lever development. Would the horizontal and vertical pulling and curls be enough?

The multi plane pushing movement is in there because I would quite like to be able to chest roll to handstand and eventually, a long time down the line Bowers and Erbs - (Which is my favorite looking exercise 8) )

I did forget to put in that in my static training I will be doing about 4 sets of 30 second handstands against a wall! If that makes any difference!

Vertical presses, horizontal presses, dips, and CPPs all strengthen the triceps. Working one of these along with handstand/press handstand work, front lever work, and l-sit work performed 4 times per week sounds like enough tricep to me. Why not start from there and add to it over time if needed?

Ok so what if i took out dips and curls but had multi plane pulling and pressing each session but only low volume. Then I should be covering all planes and have good assistance exercise for the skills im learning. For example -

Monday

Tuck planche 6x10s

HSPU’s 4x4

Adv tuck lever 6x10s

Wide grip L pull ups 4x4

Handstands 4x30s

Squats 5x5

Front lever pulls 3x3

Chest roll to HeS 3x3

HLL 4x4

Tuesday

Tuck planche 6x10s

XR PPP 4x4

Adv tuck lever 6x10s

Bulgarian XR rows 4x4

Handstands 4x30s

Pistols 4x5

Front lever pulls 3x3

Chest roll to HeS 3x3

Reverse crank 4x4

Thurs/Fri would pretty much be the same as Mon/Tue apart from on Thursdays I would change squats for deadlifts.

Regards

Jason Ingram said:

Chris,

My impression was that the static movements are to be done within the routine

Yeah, that was my impression as well. Mostly I am just still not sure where things fit with the CPP movements. Thanks for the summation.

- Chris

Chris,

I plan on doing 2 static holds per CPP set as follows:

front lever variation

planche variation

CPP

repeated 3 times or so

Coach Sommer said:

The forthcoming WODs will address all of these exercise selection issues for you. I will begin posting them in the next week or so.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That should be most helpful. Especially for newbies like myself. I'm enjoying the book very much.

The book just arrived for me before breakfast today, I only had a chance for a quick look at it (I still ended up a couple of hours late to work for some reason :wink: ).

It looks good so far, I can't wait to get a program together from it tonight. I'm just kicking myself that I didn't order the xtreme rings with it at the same time! The aussie dollar has absolutely tanked in the last two months, so they'll end up costing me almost double what they would have a month or so ago

I am designing a ring mount that I can set up in my back yard, does anybody have any suggestion on the minimum tensile strength the mount would need to accommodate for these rings exercises? I plan to over-engineer but it is always nice to be able to judge the minimum.

chobbs said:

Mostly I am just still not sure where things fit with the CPP movements.

P178, Para 1 - Re: Integrated Training: "and the appropriate pull/press supplemental movement."

This suggests that when using this protocol the focus is on the static position, with the addition of the appropriate push/pull to enhance progress. It goes on to mention (in the form of an aside) that the protocol also happens to improve the FBE you've selected, but insinuates that it is not the focus per se. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but if that is the case - then using CPPs doesn't really fit.

Actually - asides from getting into the details, logic suggests that since the key is performing the FSP immediately before the FBE ...surely doing two FSPs before the FBE means that the first FSP misses the point to a greater or lesser extent* and the following supplemental FBE is less specific as well?!?

* although I'm sure there is still some advantage to be had.

Don't know if that helps any?

This is not directed at anyone specific, but I'm also going to go out on a limb and throw out the idea that the simple fact this protocol elicits a greater physiological response suggests that it probably requires a greater work/recovery capacity and better conditioning than the simpler approaches. The idea of it being the most effective protocol is very enticing ...but that doesn't make it appropriate for everyone - especially those starting out or that have a limited history with the exercises.

Cheers,

George.

Interesting thoughts George. While I agree with the thought that the integrated training may require more conditioning than other approaches, I don't think it should be too much different since the exercises are selected based on capability. If one is trying for too much too soon I think it would show regardless of the training type selected.

Yeah maybe the CPP's don't fit at all, but if that is the case, when/how would they get worked?

- Chris

Hi all,

I just wanted to say that this discussion has been really helpful - keep it up! I am coming from no gymnastics background or wrestling background so it is all new to me.

... I had some of the same questions as the original poster after getting the book from Coach Sommer. After reading this thread, I am going to try to come up with a program design later tonight after work and post it here for a quick review.

One quick question, Jason said in an earlier post ...

--------------------------------

front lever variation

vertical pull

planche variation

vertical press

---------------------------------

back lever variation

squat

l-sit variation

v-ups

---------------------------------

where each block could be repeated, say 3-5 times

Is the suggestion that each block is done as a circuit (one exercise after another) 3-5 times ? Or do we do each exercise 3-5 times before going on to the next exercise in the block. I was not sure which is recommended.

Thanks!

Steven

I meant performing each block as a circuit 3-5 times. Tried it today, and found 3 times was plenty!

I love the book, believe in its teachings, but I am dissapointed that we (buyers/readers)

didn't get a clear explanation on the program design part. It kind of makes you dependent

on this site for the information the Coach didn't make super clear on in the book.

I feel bad for the guys who bought the book, but don't use the site regularly.

Not hatin on coach, simply speakin my mind.

-kombat

Okay, I am a complete novice ... please feel free to suggest something different. My level of fitness is moderate, hopefully progressing to more fit as time goes on. I do actively lift weights and play sports so I have some base strength but I think these exercises will probably KO me since they will be moving/supporting my body in ways I never have done before.

The ideal is to take Jason's suggestion and just try to focus on basic building block exercises that will give me a solid foundation for later on. I want to focus on a limited number of exercises because 1) they are all new to me, and 2) by focusing on a smaller set hopefully I will build functional strength that will help with the other exercises later on.

Whew, anyways thanks for reading this far and let me know what you think!

Beginning Program (4 days a week, using Coach Sommer's suggestion of MT/TF)

Monday - workout A

Tuesday - workout B

Thursday - workout A

Friday - workout B

Workout A

Front Lever Variation - (Front lever tuck)

Vertical Pull - (XR row variation)

Straddle - L (PB bend)

Vertical Press - (Handstand Push Up, box)

Workout B

Back Level Variation - (Back level tuck)

Legs - (Deck squat)

L-sit Variation - (PB tuck)

V-ups - (V-ups tuck)

Each workout is completed as a circuit and repeated 3-5 times.

Thanks!

Steven