12 Week Progression

I know Coach talked about this in the seminar however I just thought about it and Im a lil confused.

It should take you 12 weeks to progress through an exercise. So in terms of the Planche you would have 6 PE (6*12),so 72 en weeks before you can start the actual SE training. Over a year. Then another 7 SE till you get the complete Planche,84 weeks, creating a grand total of 156 weeks. Thats 3 years to do the planche. I cant understand why it would take so long when others have managed to do this feat in 1 year, or the front lever, which has atleast 15 PE and 6 SE, making 252 weeks, a little under 5 years. I by no means want to say that the system is no good because of this ,however, is this not a little extreme? I hope I havent understood this wrong,but we are talking about "basic strength", hardly any ring work, is this really the way the system works?

Thanks

I think you are confusing two things:

1) Maximum capability

2) What you should actually be working in your workouts

Example: I can hold full lay FL for 2-3 seconds, but because it has been so long (over a year) since I trained FL I am starting back with tuck FL holds until I hit 60s again. I'm close after 3 weeks but I still don't have it with good form.

Then I will do the same with flat tuck, and after that I will get to straddle. By the time I am training straddle again my full lay FL will be strong (probably 5+ seconds) and by the time I have my 15s straddle back my full lay will be 7-8 seconds and I will start training it directly.

Even when I first started this program years ago, FL was the one thing I did correctly on accident

I went right through Coach's progressions, 60s flat tuck took me about 8 weeks to achieve. It took me another few weeks to learn a proper straddle, during which time most of my work was still in flat tuck.

I was doing full lay front pulls and FL pulls for reps, as I could do them with proper form. They only require momentary FL holds so this was fine.

Try to remember that these progressions are about a lot more than just achieving the individual final progressions: They are also about preparing you for much more advanced work.

It takes the young kids a similar amount of time to make it all the way through all of this stuff, so I see no reason why it wouldn't take us the same or longer. We are heavier, older (less elastic tissues = easier to get injured), and have longer levers. We do grow muscle faster than pre-adolescent kids (at least in theory) due to much higher testosterone levels, so that is in our favor and somewhat counteracts the things about being larger and older that slow down low leverage position progression.

Still, everyone's progress will be different and to a VERY large extent it will be mediated by the quality of your recovery protocol. Seriously. I keep saying this, and I will keep saying it until the internet implodes:

If you don't give your body raw materials (protein) and energy (calorie from OTHER foods) equal to what you burned in the workout + what is necessary to support elevated protein synthesis you will NOT make the kind of progress you should.

I am not kidding you when I tell you that, in many ways, this can double your rate of progression. Sometimes more, it depends on how badly you are being held back right now.

A lot of people think they are really on point with their nutrition, but when I assess them I quickly see major areas for improvement all the time. The one that is always consistent is the amount of food eaten PWO and during the "anabolic window" afterwards. It is never enough, ever. I have yet to find one person who is actually doing this right. I screw it up too, because it really is a massive amount of food: for me, it's almost half of my food for the day. In 2-3 hours.

When I get a little time and put together some proper materials for Coach and GB we will start running nutrition segments on one of the Seminar dates outside of normal hours so that everyone can get a handle on the basics. Until then, eat more than you think you need

Well said Josh. Usual issues I see are under eating and training too hard for too long.

Funny we see the same issues. Shows how common they are.

Joshua Naterman said:

I went right through Coach's progressions, 60s flat tuck took me about 8 weeks to achieve. It took me another few weeks to learn a proper straddle, during which time most of my work was still in flat tuck.

I dont understand how it took you 8 weeks, how was the programming?

Joshua Naterman said:

It takes the young kids a similar amount of time to make it all the way through all of this stuff, so I see no reason why it wouldn't take us the same or longer. We are heavier, older (less elastic tissues = easier to get injured), and have longer levers. We do grow muscle faster than pre-adolescent kids (at least in theory) due to much higher testosterone levels, so that is in our favor and somewhat counteracts the things about being larger and older that slow down low leverage position progression.

So you are really saying one should spend so much time on these moves? I understand your point of view,but nevertheless it seems like a really long time,especially when there are things like the planche, in which I am doing the Planche Scissors, a PE, instead of where i currently am in strength, a straight arm crowstand.

Joshua Naterman said:

If you don't give your body raw materials (protein) and energy (calorie from OTHER foods) equal to what you burned in the workout + what is necessary to support elevated protein synthesis you will NOT make the kind of progress you should.

Yeah I know a thing or two about nutrition, I have a couple of pounds worth of mens health to back it up . On a serious note, I do eat quite well, with a balanced diet, thanks for the thought though.

What I would be interested in is if it really takes this long to do these moves, if you think there is a shorter period for *easier* PEs.

Thank you anyways, its always great to see such a vibrant and living forum,the members here are all awesome people who reply in an instant without the smallest remark on anything, I love it!

There are 2 important points that have to be made. Josh made one of them, and that is:

1. Your training and your maximal abilities don't necessarily have to be the same. Just because you aren't pushing the maximal intensity, doesn't mean that you aren't making progress. It is necessary to work on the weak links, and stepping back on the intensity to build some volume with 'easier' work will allow for that. Work capacity builds a base for further intensification. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't be using intensity as a stimulus. You should, but you need to know how and when to use it(hint: not all the time).

2. Coach said at the seminar that if you can do the prescribed sets and reps/time for each movement, then you can move on. I think it's reasonable to expect it to take a while for them to be able to perform full lay front levers. Maybe it won't take 5 years, but maybe it will. You need to consider who that is for: someone who is starting from scratch - literally from the beginning.

There will be some individual variation with how much time they have to spend on each progression, so I don't think you can accurately predict how long it will take someone to reach a particular level without considering all the variables(which is quite difficult to do without 1 on 1 coaching). The progressions will be able to tell you how far you are, but not necessarily how long it will take to reach the end.

raja said:

2. Coach said at the seminar that if you can do the prescribed sets and reps/time for each movement, then you can move on. I think it's reasonable to expect it to take a while for them to be able to perform full lay front levers. Maybe it won't take 5 years, but maybe it will. You need to consider who that is for: someone who is starting from scratch - literally from the beginning.

A quick clarification: you may move on provided you can also test out of the previous progressions as well.

Since I wasn't sure what Coach's stance was I decided to stay silent on this, but what is being said reflects how I approach things. If I can do a progression properly, I will use it. If there are pre-requisites that need to be fulfilled that for whatever reason I CANNOT perform then I will work on them concurrently.

It is stupid and a waste of invested time and effort to abandon step 7 that you can do properly just because you can't do step 4 and 5. It is also stupid to move on to step 8 without also working on those two things that you can't currently do properly.

In other words, keep working on 7 and move on to 8 when you can perform it correctly but ALSO use your warm ups as a way to build up any earlier progressions that you cannot currently complete properly.

How long these things take depends heavily on one's strength background. If we are talking about someone who can't do a pull up or a proper push up when they first start off, then yes it will probably take them several years to develop some reasonably advanced basic strength.

If someone comes in here benching twice their bodyweight and repping out deadhang weighted pull ups with half their bodyweight attached they're going to progress much, much more quickly in several areas.

Yes I agree with Josh on this, the GB program has been a living program, with revisions based on Coach Sommer's experience working with adult trainees with limited gymnastic background.

Many are coming in with some impressive levels of strength, others, like myself, are pretty average or even below. In all cases however, there are gaps, weak areas that need to be shored up. Absolutely maintain what you have but don't neglect what you don't just because it's a 'lower' step.

If you are capable of a lower step it will take one work out to find out, if not then it's a subject for work, though you might want to do some of it concurrently with something more demanding. AFAIK this is acceptable, and in my mind shows a certain level of training maturity.

In my own experience, having recently had elbow surgery, due to osteoarthritis I've had to modify some progressions to fit what my elbow can handle.

For example, I found it impossible to do even a single PB dip, it was simply too painful at a certain part of the ROM. Yet the pushups were quite easy. I found that doing Single Bar Dips were not painful at all, so I worked through them. Then re checked the PB Dips, it was possible to do one, and now I'm carefully reworking the PB dip progression.

The level system is there to insure a certain standard, there is no bypassing it, but there is room to use your intelligence on how to get there in the way most suitable for you.

This is actually quite simple: All GB.com strength level rankings will require that all of the exercises and all of the mobility for that level, AND THE LEVELS PRIOR, can be performed correctly for the prescribed number of repetitions.

(If you are overly sensitive you may want to skip the following Jr National Team Coach rant.)

There will be no exceptions to this policy for obtaining a GB.com ranking. You either demonstrate excellence or you do not. There will be no in between. If you have been slacking off on your mobility work, you will be held accountable. If you have been slacking off on your strength work, you will be held accountable. If you have been avoiding a particular exercise, you will be held accountable.

Now if you do not desire to obtain a GB.com ranking, you may of course train however you choose, with whatever progressions you desire with no hard feelings.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

*clutches heart* Argh... You're looking at me and my "flexibility" aren't you?!?!

Not sure I'd call that a rant Coach. You're just stating the facts, and maintaining a standard, wish more would do it.

In a sense also stop looking at the numbers and thinking you're going backwards to work on something is a negative thing. Likely it will progress relatively quickly or it will smack you in the face and show you a weakness you were unaware of.

Joshua Naterman said:

*clutches heart* Argh... You're looking at me and my "flexibility" aren't you?!?!

:? . . . Is that what you call it?!?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Only when using quotation marks :oops:

...

I have gone back to PE1 on everything. I figure after my 12 weeks is up I'll check PE 2 and if I can do the week 11 progression then I'll just skip it otherwise I'll work it.

Coach: If I can't do a week 11 element but I can do a week 6 element, should I be starting at week 1 and doing the full 12 weeks, or starting at week 6?

I also use 1 day and other random times to "play" with the harder elements. I work at a gym so I'll just do 5 HeSPU or 5 pullups or a Adv Tuck FL or something similar if I've got a few seconds spare. End up only doing this a couple of times per week but it keeps those elements alive. I have made far more progress in my planche working just the shoulder protractions than I ever did working on the actual planche.

Craig said:

Coach: If I can't do a week 11 element but I can do a week 6 element, should I be starting at week 1 and doing the full 12 weeks, or starting at week 6?

Good question.

I have no problem with this, as long as your starting point is not too aggressive.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Of course I understand that one must be proficient in each step. By being on PE10 one must have done all the 9 before, the only thing I was asking about was if it was absolutely necessary to spend so much time on the lower level steps, Im in no hurry, dont get me wrong, and Ill do all the steps that I need to, it was just a thought.

And as of mobility, I dont think Coach could stress that topic anymore in the seminar, and I perfectly understand this.

What I am currently doing is working several steps on the same time, lets say I would like to be better in the Planche Scissors, but dont want to lose my Crowstand, so I do both, with the mobility work of each respectively.

I can perfectly remember when Coach was taking about having Alan on the same program for a YEAR and he kept getting stronger. So Im not worried about staying 12 weeks on one exercise.

I never wanted this thread to become so big with so many people involved, to be honest it was just a little doubt I had, however Im happy that the doubt not only is resolved but others also have been able to get their questions answered.

Craig made an excellent point which actually answered my question, by starting a bit further down the week progression in exercises where I already have experience.

Thanks to everybody who spent time and effort in replying to this thread, especially to Coach since he is a very busy man.

Have a great day

What are Planche Scissors?

What is PE10?

PL Scissors is a additional intermediate step in the PL progression.

PEx stands for Preparatory Exercise x which is part of the layout of the updated programming.

It will all make sense to you in November!

Ok thanks Cole, is there a description of the planche Scissors?

Mats,

By memory, it's holding a planche lean and then raising one leg at a time, ensuring that you maintain the hollowed back position even when the leg is raising. I can't remember if this was done on the floor or with the feet raised on a box, I'm sure both are suitable exercises.

From the floor, then you scissor and switch the up leg. Try and keep your body stable as you do this.

Robmob said:

...

I can perfectly remember when Coach was taking about having Alan on the same program for a YEAR and he kept getting stronger. So Im not worried about staying 12 weeks on one exercise. ...

This is not uncommon with advanced powerlifters either, from what I understand.

Thanks Graig and Nic!

Joshua Naterman said:

Robmob said:

...

I can perfectly remember when Coach was taking about having Alan on the same program for a YEAR and he kept getting stronger. So Im not worried about staying 12 weeks on one exercise. ...

This is not uncommon with advanced powerlifters either, from what I understand.

It has shown good results with many of them.