Convenient carb sources for during training

[gravy]

I get really low blood glucose towards the middle to end of my workouts. After experimenting, I confirmed that I could easily fix this by increasing sugar intake during the session. And now I require a convenient way to administer glucose. I was using gatorade the past few workouts, but I think it is pretty costly to continually purchase bottled gatorade. Furthermore, gatorade is probably not the healthiest of options.

I would eat grapes or raisins, but I prefer having a drink for convenience. Plus, my hands usually get dirty while working out.

I had a preworkout meal of two sweet potatoes and some veggies/protein source before experimenting each time:

-I tried honey, but it made me feel gross. And two teaspoons was not sufficient for the workout. (not cost effective)

-I also tried having one banana, but that was not enough. I needed gatorade in addition to achieve normal blood-glucose levels.

-about a half to 3/4 of a 20 oz bottle of gatorade did the trick.

If there are better options than a sugary drink, please do tell. I will pick up some raisins today and see how well they work for me. I just want to explore my options and see what others have to say.

[optik169]

Are you eating/drinking anything pre-workout?

[gravy]

Well, if you read the post... sweet potatoes and vegetables with a protein source.

And I do the btgb routine with a cardio warmup, some handstand work at the end, and a few extra exercises.

[Blairbob]

As you said just eat some fruit. Or you can make your own gatorade like concoction.

[Larry Roseman]

A convienant way to administer glucose? How about in a bottle with water?

I also toss in around 100mg of sodium and potassium salt - clear gatorade as BlairBob mentioned.

Can also add some protein in around a 4:1 ratio, carbs to protein. Then it's not so clear.

See Josh's workout nutrition threads for further info.

Are you having a larger mixed meal a few hours before working out? That helps me.

I'm not into fasted training at all!

.

[optik169]

Well, if you read the post... sweet potatoes and vegetables with a protein source.

And I do the btgb routine with a cardio warmup, some handstand work at the end, and a few extra exercises.

My bad, I missed that part. Generally the size of my pwo and how long I eat before my workout determines how much energy I'll have. For weightlifting I'd either eat a small meal an hour before or a large meal 2 hours prior. With gymnastic training I do it a bit differently because my first half hour is spent doing a warmup/stretching/prehab. I'll either eat a half hour before or right before I start.

Also, pickle juice. I know you're looking for sugar but this is a natural source of sodium and electrolytes. Works faster than Gatorade. It's a great pick-me-up for long workouts.

[gravy]

A convienant way to administer glucose? How about in a bottle with water?

I also toss in around 100mg of sodium and potassium salt - clear gatorade as BlairBob mentioned.

Can also add some protein in around a 4:1 ratio, carbs to protein. Then it's not so clear.

See Josh's workout nutrition threads for further info.

Are you having a larger mixed meal a few hours before working out?

Yes, I always have complete meals before my workouts. So just add glucose to water...from what? Glucose powder from the store? What recipe are you talking about?

I've already read Josh's Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition post. I don't really have access to coconut or coconut cream. There's only an albertsons, trader joes, and costco nearby so my choices are limited. There's health food stores near by, but those overprice everything.

I experimented with raisins yesterday. They worked quite well, but I ate a lot of them. I wasn't sure how much was too little or too much. I am also not a huge fan of the taste. I think I'd still prefer a beverage to raisins.

[Rikke Olsen]

The Pre-, MId- and Post workout nutrition advices have been changed quite a bit since those threads were started. Take a search through the board - Josh has made loads of posts about nutrition, how much, when, what kind etc.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) -I also tried having one banana, but that was not enough. (...)

May I humbly suggest a second banana?

[Rik de Kort]

(...) -I also tried having one banana, but that was not enough. (...)

May I humbly suggest a second banana?

GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL, HE'S A GENIUS

[gravy]

One banana is already an inconvenient source as I have to hold it while biking to my training location. I keep all my gear in my bag, so keeping it in the bag is not an option; the bag is already full and banana will get squished. Bananas are pretty cheap, but I still prefer a beverage for faster absorption and convenience.

I will experiment with fruit juice diluted with water and see how that works for me.

[Daniel Burnham]

either glucose powder or even malt dextrin. Eat slow carbs an hour before then right before your workout take malto. Works well for me. Take glucose with your BCAA during the workout.

Not a fan of fruit juice as it generally contains a fair amount of fructose which can cause discomfort in the bowels during the workout.

How long are your workouts anyway?

It could also be that you should just eat more slower carbs before the workout.

[gravy]

My workouts are probably 1.5+ hours long. Yes, I have been looking for a cheap source of dextrose powder. I am going to mix my own sports drinks for myself instead of buying gatorade powder.

So far I have:

-Dextrose

-Table salt

-Potassium Chloride

I just need to find the correct ratios and a means to flavor the liquid now.

[Blairbob]

you can flavor it with lemon or lime juice or both. orange juice any would work well

[gravy]

It turns out I was running the wrong queries through the forum search engine. I was searching for "sports drink" and "gatorade". "Dextrose" was a lot more successful.

[Larry Roseman]

I'd keep dextrose around 5% solution. So 50g/liter of water.

Just off hand but 100-200mg potassium & sodium each should be sufficent.

Strength training even rings isn't a high electrolyte loss activity - unlike heavy cardio for example.

Could add 1% whey to the mix.

I've used dilute fruit juice as well without problems.

Potassium is typically inherent in these.

Josh has recommended white potatoes before instead of bananas.

Don't know if spuds work for you, and certainly not hydrating

but lots of carbs and potassium - and decent quality protein.

[Lindahl]

There's NO WAY that you're depleting your glycogen stores unless you're running a marathon. One study measured the effect of intense lifting on glycogen stores. The subjects performed 20 sets of squats to failure. That's 20 sets of one of the most demanding exercises TO FAILURE. And then measured muscle glycogen. They found that it was only depleted by 25%. That is 75% of the muscle glycogen stores were still intact.

There's no need to eat during your workout session. If you're fatigued just take longer rest times.

[Karri Kytömaa]

This is totally off the hat so anyone with some real knowledge should correct.

I'm assuming the research Lindahl is referring more or less right. However I think many have personal feeling that eating something small or having sugary drink during workout increases performance. (Also during strength training)

Could it have something to do with loading your CNS and thus making your brain crave more carbohydrates?

I at least know that when I sit down to play bridge for several hours, I come close to almost fainting if I don't feed my brain.

[Larry Roseman]

Keep in mind that glycogen storage used in the squatting muscles - the glutes, hams, quads, calves and core - is going to be much greater than what's available in the arms and chest doing say, muscle-ups.

It does take a lot to deplete your glycogen stores through strength exercise. Google full body glycogen depletion routine.

It is a brutal and naseating affair that is sometimes it is spread over two days to minimize the suffering.

But performance can degrade before full depletion occurs as well. Pre and post-workout nutrition is often enough

for typical workouts. But if you're feeling you need or could benefit from a snack during workout, you can do it. Solid food digestion slows during intense exercise so liquid would be faster though.

[Lindahl]

This is totally off the hat so anyone with some real knowledge should correct.

I'm assuming the research Lindahl is referring more or less right. However I think many have personal feeling that eating something small or having sugary drink during workout increases performance. (Also during strength training)

Could it have something to do with loading your CNS and thus making your brain crave more carbohydrates?

I at least know that when I sit down to play bridge for several hours, I come close to almost fainting if I don't feed my brain.

Don't get me wrong, if you feel like you perform better when eating during workout, then by all means go ahead. Whatever you can do to be the best you can be in the gym, do it!

[Lindahl]

Keep in mind that glycogen storage used in the squatting muscles - the glutes, hams, quads, calves and core - is going to be much greater than what's available in the arms and chest doing say, muscle-ups.

I would think the ratio between glycogen stores in muscle and the energy required for the muscle to do work is somewhat related. That is to say that the glycogen stores in big muscle groups are greater, but the energy requirement is also greater. Let me use a very simplified way of looking at glycogen stores and energy requirements to illustrate what I mean.

Quad muscles contain 100 glycogen.

Tricep muscles contain 20 glycogen.

20 sets of squats to failure depletes the Quad to about 75 glycogen.

20 sets of dips to failure depletes the Tricep to about 15 glycogen.

The tricep contains less glycogen, but also requires less glycogen to do work because it is smaller.

Anwyay, this is just a thought I had, and in no way backed up by any science I'm aware of, just thought it makes sense.

It does take a lot to deplete your glycogen stores through strength exercise. Google full body glycogen depletion routine.

It is a brutal and naseating affair that is sometimes it is spread over two days to minimize the suffering.

But performance can degrade before full depletion occurs as well.

This is true of course, as anyone who's ever used a muscle knows but it has more to do with lactate buildup and lack of oxygen than glycogen depletion. The solution, as many powerlifters and bodybuilders know, is to take longer rest times.

[Larry Roseman]

Keep in mind that glycogen storage used in the squatting muscles - the glutes, hams, quads, calves and core - is going to be much greater than what's available in the arms and chest doing say, muscle-ups.

I would think the ratio between glycogen stores in muscle and the energy required for the muscle to do work is somewhat related. That is to say that the glycogen stores in big muscle groups are greater, but the energy requirement is also greater. Let me use a very simplified way of looking at glycogen stores and energy requirements to illustrate what I mean.

Quad muscles contain 100 glycogen.

Tricep muscles contain 20 glycogen.

20 sets of squats to failure depletes the Quad to about 75 glycogen.

20 sets of dips to failure depletes the Tricep to about 15 glycogen.

The tricep contains less glycogen, but also requires less glycogen to do work because it is smaller.

Anwyay, this is just a thought I had, and in no way backed up by any science I'm aware of, just thought it makes sense.

It does take a lot to deplete your glycogen stores through strength exercise. Google full body glycogen depletion routine.

It is a brutal and naseating affair that is sometimes it is spread over two days to minimize the suffering.

But performance can degrade before full depletion occurs as well.

This is true of course, as anyone who's ever used a muscle knows but it has more to do with lactate buildup and lack of oxygen than glycogen depletion. The solution, as many powerlifters and bodybuilders know, is to take longer rest times.

Warning: broscience alert! Yes, there is greater kinetic energy potential in larger muscles. However moving ones bodyweight spread over the huge squat muscles is going to require less glycogen per unit of muscle mass than smaller muscles as they need need to work at a higher intensity. In other words, small muscles will run out of their glycogen faster. Locally lactic acid could be a factor if it accumulates in the muscles, which also is directly proportional to rate of glycogen expenditure. This is one reason (as you state) that we take breaks and change exercises. That allows the lactate to be used by the mitochondria for aerobic power or to be converted to glucose in the liver, and sent into the bloodstream.

Much depends on your state going into the workout and your general condition. I agree it takes a lot to *require* nutrition during a strength workout. At the same time, it doesn't hurt and may help certain individuals. Some of it may just be the recovery time made available when snacking or drinking.

[Joshua Naterman]

Mountains of research show that lactate has very little to do with fatigue apart from single set to failure fatigue as it changes the pH to where glycolytic enzymes can no longer function properly and of course also changes where the reaction is on the equilibrium curve.

Fatigue, in terms of a multi-set anaerobic workout, seems to come primarily from the CNS as a protective measure to keep the temperature of the muscle itself from rising above 105 degrees F, which is apparently where you start getting spontaneous protein unfolding. That, just in case anyone wasn't aware, is pretty much the worst of the worst.

As for the long rest periods used with pure maximal strength-oriented work, they are used because 5-7 minutes is what it takes to fully rephosphorylate muscle creatine so that you have a full battery for the next set. Has literally nothing to do with either lactate or glycogen.

The reason the legs use less glycogen is simple: They have proportionally more aerobic capacity than the upper body because the legs are used all the time to walk around. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you realize how quickly you get tired walking on your hands by comparison. Aerobic capacity is a huge factor in all of this, and it is very different from one muscle to another. It is primarily mediated by how the muscles are used.

If, for example, you were to do arm circles for 30-40 minutes per day, nonstop, you would develop a much higher aerobic capacity in those muscles. Now, it should be obvious to anyone who has ever tried to do such a thing (or been forced to in the military) that this capacity is not in the shoulders, regardless of what your resistance training looks like. You do sets of 30 lateral raises? You'll be better off than the guy who does 5, but not by a whole lot. In both cases you're using primarily anaerobic energy systems, so you get nowhere near the amount of aerobic capacity that you get with steady state work.

So, perhaps it is more clear now that it is the aerobic capacity of each muscle that determines how quickly it will run out of glycogen moreso than its size. Full recruitment is full recruitment, regardless of size, and actual glycogen storage is a function of diet + muscle usage patterns. Muscle can store up to 35g glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue according to physiology research. Doesn't matter if it's a triceps head or the VMO or the soleus. Glycogen capacity is the same in all muscle tissue, but actual storage is dependent on usage and dietary carb intake.

The real difference is in anaerobic capacity, because those aerobic muscles can use the circulating lactate to regenerate a lot of energy. The less aerobic muscles... well... can't. There's also more fat being used in aerobic fibers, which helps spare glycogen even more, but in resistance exercise that's a bit less helpful.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to follow the Broscience (which, for broscience, was refreshingly logical) with Real Science (don't sue me, USA NETWORK!)

[Larry Roseman]

Touche. I consider my broscience trumped, although I didn't get a sense where you stand on the need to replenish glycogen with intake during anaerobic exericse issue - at least in this post.

I was going to use the walk on hands analgoy however there complicating factors with balance and wrist resiliance there. One guy though recently climbed a big mountain walking on his hands! It can be trained, especially when you lose the use of your legs...which helps improve the blood flow to the arms perhaps. Haven't looked into it.

Anyway, good post.

[Joshua Naterman]

Oh any muscle can be trained to be highly aerobic! It isn't necessarily in most peoples' interest to do so, but it can be done.

We see the legs become incredibly anaerobic with extended bed restriction (or other extended lower body immobilization), to the point that it takes weeks for people to be able to walk any significant distance without stopping to take a rest... there's nothing magical about the leg muscles Just constant use.

The blood flow isn't really a huge issue I don't think, the main issue is specific tissue adaptations in the arms and shoulders.

People make the mistake, and it IS a mistake, of believing that aerobic means weak. It does not. Aerobic does not mean type I myosin heavy chain, it means high aerobic capacity (which is completely different from myosin heavy chain isoform). The two adaptations have nothing to do with each other. It is virtually impossible to make type IIa or IIx myosin become type I in live humans. It is, however, possible for the existing type IIa fibers (which is what type IIx become as we use muscles more, whether for strength OR endurance) to develop high aerobic capacities as well as high glycolytic capacity and high CrP capacity. It just depends on how you train them.