60 seconds rule

Hi everyone,

according to BtGB i calculate my max. hold for static positions in the beginning of a ssc.

I divide that max hold by two and divide 60s by that time. so i get my sets.

I've read here that, once you've reached the 60 seconds, you should move on to the next harder variation (except for some really hard exercises like straddle planche, where you want move on once you've reached 15s).

So lets say i've got a 60s max hold tucked planche and i want to start a new ssc.

Do i have to do:

1) 2x30s tucked planche

2) 1x60s tucked planche

3) start with flat back planches

?

I mean once i've reached a 60s max hold. Should i start for one more ssc with 1x60s or 2x30? Or should i instantly

stop with this particular hold and move on?

I hope you've got the idea behind my question...^^

have a nice day!!

Doesn't matter too much, it's just a warmup set for your Adv Tuck Planche work.

no i mean, after every ssc i test my new max holds. if i do reach the 60s should i move on to the next harder variation in my next ssc?

From what I've learned so far, 30 seconds is sufficient enough to start learning the next progression. I would start off with a 30 second Tuck Planche and then move on to my 10 x 6 Adv. Tuck Planche...but I'm not doing planche work yet, so I can't tell you what you should be capable of doing, in addition to my preference being different from yours. If you feel like Tuck Planche isn't challenging you enough anymore, and you can hold the Adv. Tuck for at least 6 seconds, go ahead and move on. Just throw a set of the old progression in for maintenance.

ok thank you.

30s max hold is enough?? hm from what i've read it was 60 seconds...

Hi mate, before anything I want to say that I am a complete gymnastic noob.

I have however, been reading for a long time, and here's what is in the book with regards to your question.

Page 188 BtGB:

"When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds, you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds. If you are unable to hold the next variation for three to five seconds, you should continue training with your current variation while experimenting with the new to begin to establish a foundation of familiarity from which to work the new variation from."

Thanks for making me curious enough to get back to the book I've learned something new because of it.

P5yx said:

I've read here that, once you've reached the 60 seconds, you should move on to the next harder variation (except for some really hard exercises like straddle planche, where you want move on once you've reached 15s).

You were right when you said this. 60s is required for all progressions before straddle.

P5yx said:

Do i have to do:

1) 2x30s tucked planche

2) 1x60s tucked planche

3) start with flat back planches

?

I mean once i've reached a 60s max hold. Should i start for one more ssc with 1x60s or 2x30? Or should i instantly

stop with this particular hold and move on?

I believe that's up to you. It's a warm up, so treat it as such. If you can do 2x30s of Tuck PL without wearing yourself out before you start with Flat tuck planches, then by all means do it.

Mister said:

Hi mate, before anything I want to say that I am a complete gymnastic noob.

I have however, been reading for a long time, and here's what is in the book with regards to your question.

Page 188 BtGB:

"When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds, you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds. If you are unable to hold the next variation for three to five seconds, you should continue training with your current variation while experimenting with the new to begin to establish a foundation of familiarity from which to work the new variation from."

Thanks for making me curious enough to get back to the book I've learned something new because of it.

That settles that. I prefer to go a little bit further to 30 seconds just for the sake of the load/unload cycle, but I suppose that is personal preference.

I am really bad when it comes to doing the whole 60 seconds hold times as holding the same position for 60 seconds tends to bore me so it has been a struggle to train those high holds. I have been going for the, if you can hold it for 15-20 seconds and hold the next one for 10 seconds then start on the next progression at least one of the days you train each week and once it starts getting a bit easier incorporate more days where you train that next progression until you are holding 20 seconds of that one and the next progression is at 10 or so. Of course i don't do this with the planche and especially not with the back lever as the back lever in particular seems to be an injury waiting to happen as you can progress faster than your elbows can handle. Planche to me seems too hard to progress faster than my elbows can handle though.

This seems to be working for me and maybe I will build longer holds in the future but like I said it bores me and not so long ago I was holding an L-sit for 30 seconds and the only reason I stopped was because I wanted to do something else as the L-sit was taking too long =P. It is the same for the warm up pre reqs I can easily hold them all for 3 sets of 60 seconds back to back but for my warm up I hold them for 20 seconds each no rest then repeat the cycle 3 times without any rest rather than holding each one for 60 seconds and only doing one set, that why i end up with the same time in the move so I am nice and warm =) no idea if this makes a big difference or not but if I have to hold something for 60 seconds i get bored and will probably stop doing it.

okaxmasato said:

That settles that. I prefer to go a little bit further to 30 seconds just for the sake of the load/unload cycle, but I suppose that is personal preference.

Actually, it doesn't settle it. The book is being revised and this will be changed. Everyone here should read the sticky "Steady State Training Cycle"

Here's a quote,

Joshua Naterman said:

That 15 second guideline is for the harder variations, and the reason you only need a 15 second straddle planche to start working on full lay is that the leverage is already so low that by that point your biceps tendon will be ready for full planche.

In the beginning, it is very important to build a 60s frogstand, advanced frogstand, tuck, and advanced tuck planche. Coach commented on this in one of my recent posts on a similar thread. These four beginning positions are much, much easier than straddle planche, and their primary purposes are to A) build the muscular strength necessary for straddle/full lay and B) develop the biceps tendon to the point where it can handle the strain of a straddle or full lay planche hold with straight arms.

You can do what you like, but I have already outlined exactly what your course of action should be right now. If you continue to follow your current line of thinking you will most likely be the latest addition to our "injured through improper training" list. There's nothing wrong with being there, if that's where you want to be.

As it says, you can do what you want, but you shouldn't really go and give advice to people that contradicts the board.

I didn't know the book was being revised.

I just copied the book because he mentioned what he read in the book, giving advice would require actually knowing something.

It depends how you look at it, really. Tuck planche is the first progression that does not use your elbows for support, so one could argue that it is considered one of the harder progressions. Obviously if he tries the next progression and cant hold even 5 seconds, he should continue to increase his endurance on the previous progression. I doubt testing it with one rep will injure himself, unless he keeps going at it against better judgment.

However, if he can do the adv. tuck planche 5 seconds or more, then it would be considered an easy progression and would not be necessary to go past 15 seconds of the previous hold. Like I said, difficulty of each progression is relative to the person doing them, so saying that one progression is hard or not doesn't hold any weight unless it's the person talking about himself. I'd say if you reached 15 seconds of your current progression, you might as well test the next, and just go back to working up to 30 or 60 seconds if you fail it. It's worked for me, that's why I suggesting it, but everyone is different so whether he can do it or not depends on his body alone.

I think what people are getting at is that it doesnt matter as much about who easy or hard the next progression is to do it is about building the strength in your joints to be able to handle the load. Just because the next progression may be easy for you to hold for 5-10 seconds doesn't mean you elbow joint is ready for training under that load I guess that is where the 60 seconds comes in. With 60 seconds your elbow should be sufficiently prepared for the increase in load you will have from moving to the next progression. I held a 5 second full lay back lever but I started training tuck as my elbows were not even close to ready even though my muscles could hold it. Now all I have to do is figure out a way to not be bored by holding sets for so long =P

ausswe said:

I think what people are getting at is that it doesnt matter as much about who easy or hard the next progression is to do it is about building the strength in your joints to be able to handle the load. Just because the next progression may be easy for you to hold for 5-10 seconds doesn't mean you elbow joint is ready for training under that load I guess that is where the 60 seconds comes in. With 60 seconds your elbow should be sufficiently prepared for the increase in load you will have from moving to the next progression. I held a 5 second full lay back lever but I started training tuck as my elbows were not even close to ready even though my muscles could hold it. Now all I have to do is figure out a way to not be bored by holding sets for so long =P

That's an excellent point that hasn't been raised yet. Food for thought, I totally forgot about joint prep, because I'm getting it regardless through my routine. For someone who isn't incorporating it properly, this is a major issue above static strength. Good head on your shoulders

okaxmasato said:

It depends how you look at it, really. Tuck planche is the first progression that does not use your elbows for support, so one could argue that it is considered one of the harder progressions. Obviously if he tries the next progression and cant hold even 5 seconds, he should continue to increase his endurance on the previous progression. I doubt testing it with one rep will injure himself, unless he keeps going at it against better judgment.

However, if he can do the adv. tuck planche 5 seconds or more, then it would be considered an easy progression and would not be necessary to go past 15 seconds of the previous hold. Like I said, difficulty of each progression is relative to the person doing them, so saying that one progression is hard or not doesn't hold any weight unless it's the person talking about himself. I'd say if you reached 15 seconds of your current progression, you might as well test the next, and just go back to working up to 30 or 60 seconds if you fail it. It's worked for me, that's why I suggesting it, but everyone is different so whether he can do it or not depends on his body alone.

A question: You say that if someone can hold a 5s adv tuck PL then it is an easy progression. Are you then suggesting that a 2RM on bench press is easy? Because that takes about 5 seconds to complete.

5 seconds is almost no time at all.

I will say, personally, that as you get heavier and larger it becomes more and more difficult to perform 60s holds. I don't think there's much of any reason for anyone to not build up to 45-60s on both tuck and adv tuck PL.

As mentioned, there will be alterations to the approach that require zero thought on anyone's part and simply following the template laid out, making questions like these largely a thing of the past.

From a practical perspective, you need to hold these positions for long periods of time because the supporting musculature is slower twitch in nature, both metabolically and by MHC isoform percentage, and as such they respond somewhat better to the longer holds.

A final point: You do NOT want to create a supporting musculature that is capable of failing at the same time as the prime movers... that's just asking for injury, and potentially a catastrophic one. You always want your supporting musculature to be capable of stabilizing the joints well beyond the timeframe that the prime movers are capable of producing as given amount of force, in this case holding a straddle planche. This requires longer holds than what you use during strict strength training.

Joshua Naterman said:

okaxmasato said:

It depends how you look at it, really. Tuck planche is the first progression that does not use your elbows for support, so one could argue that it is considered one of the harder progressions. Obviously if he tries the next progression and cant hold even 5 seconds, he should continue to increase his endurance on the previous progression. I doubt testing it with one rep will injure himself, unless he keeps going at it against better judgment.

However, if he can do the adv. tuck planche 5 seconds or more, then it would be considered an easy progression and would not be necessary to go past 15 seconds of the previous hold. Like I said, difficulty of each progression is relative to the person doing them, so saying that one progression is hard or not doesn't hold any weight unless it's the person talking about himself. I'd say if you reached 15 seconds of your current progression, you might as well test the next, and just go back to working up to 30 or 60 seconds if you fail it. It's worked for me, that's why I suggesting it, but everyone is different so whether he can do it or not depends on his body alone.

A question: You say that if someone can hold a 5s adv tuck PL then it is an easy progression. Are you then suggesting that a 2RM on bench press is easy? Because that takes about 5 seconds to complete.

5 seconds is almost no time at all.

I will say, personally, that as you get heavier and larger it becomes more and more difficult to perform 60s holds. I don't think there's much of any reason for anyone to not build up to 45-60s on both tuck and adv tuck PL.

As mentioned, there will be alterations to the approach that require zero thought on anyone's part and simply following the template laid out, making questions like these largely a thing of the past.

From a practical perspective, you need to hold these positions for long periods of time because the supporting musculature is slower twitch in nature, both metabolically and by MHC isoform percentage, and as such they respond somewhat better to the longer holds.

A final point: You do NOT want to create a supporting musculature that is capable of failing at the same time as the prime movers... that's just asking for injury, and potentially a catastrophic one. You always want your supporting musculature to be capable of stabilizing the joints well beyond the timeframe that the prime movers are capable of producing as given amount of force, in this case holding a straddle planche. This requires longer holds than what you use during strict strength training.

No, I wasn't suggesting the new progression was an easy one, but that the old progression would have been considered easy. I believe that's why it's suggested we test for a new position, otherwise we'd stay at the initial progression for a month or longer without the possibility of moving on. An example of what I was NOT talking about, my friend felt he could do L-sit on the rings right away because he weight lifted, so he jumped right into that, and ended up with a shoulder joint and wrist joint injury. On the other hand, what I was suggesting, I felt like I could proceed from L-sit Tuck to L-sit Low sufficiently, so I skipped my 1 x 60 set and moved onto my 10 x 6 set of L-sit Low without problems. I'm now nearing the end of my standard L-sit training, and still getting better.

In short, I'm not suggesting to skip to portions you aren't prepared for, but rather, to skip to portions you are prepared for. Both skip a portion of the workout, but one your muscles, joints and tendons are not at risk. That is what I'm suggesting. I can't see how that would still be wrong to follow, or else we'd all not have any flexibility in our schedules, unless it's to make it longer.

Well, this is fairly well solved in the new edition, but there is some truth to that and some grey areas as well.

When you skip ahead to things you appear ready for, you aren't necessarily doing anything good for yourself. I'm not suggesting you're doing this, by the way, just pointing out a mistake I made that I didn't know was a mistake for a long time.

I ended up just sort of doing advanced L sit fairly early on, because I could hold the position due to strength built up over the years.

The problem was, I couldn't hold a compressed L sit. I did not realize that this represented a serious deficiency that is still there, as I have still not taken any time to correct the lack of compression and as such I am much further behind on press handstands than I should be.

Just something to keep in mind... and tuck L sit to low L sit is not in the same league as tuck PL to adv tuck PL. I often advocate spending the bulk of the time on the easier progression and taking 1-2 days per week to do low volume practice to near failure or failure (doesn't take long) with the hard progression. So 3x20s for tuck PL Monday and Wednesday, but 2x 20s tuck PL and 1x5-7s Adv Tuck PL on Tuesday and 1x 20s tuck PL with 2-3x 5-7s adv tuck PL on Thursday.

Just an example with the days, but this kind of thing allows you to start working on the strength (which I do believe is important if you can hold a solid position for a few seconds) while also building the volume you need to ensure safety and constant progression.

Hope that clarifies what I mean a little bit.

The article Coach wrote and the statement in the book are addressed nearly every seminar, and the bottom line is that he didn't realize he forgot to specify which progressions he preferred a 60s max for. It is hard when you are juggling so many things and have written so many things, as I am finding out myself. These explanations all sounded a bit odd to me until I started juggling full time girlfriend with 16-18 credit hours, work, cooking, working out, training an online client, and putting professional materials together. Then I realized that it is a huge task to do all that, and that there will always be something that slips.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. It seems I was a bit misguided (by my own reading, or lack thereof). I'm looking forward to the revised book! I think I'll refrain from suggestions until I get a bit more experienced

-Masato

I have some question:

1)If we need to reach 60" of tuck planche before doing advanced tuck, the book says that the isometric total work is 60", so for example if we can do a maximal tuck planche of 50", we must do 2 isometric of 30" only?

Or as Joshua says we must do 1x30" tuck and 3-4x6-7" adv tuck?

2)The most difficult for me doing long time tuck planche is to mantain the hollow when i breath, is normal?

3)Isn't also good doing more than 60" of work? like 3x30" tuck planche, or 2x30" + 2-3x6-7" advanced tuck?

Now I have a maximal of tuck planche of 30", and I can hold an advanced tuck with good form for 6-7".

Can I work like Joshua routine, or I'm not enough strong?

Thanks for help

I'd like to add to those question with this

4) Is it ok to just be able to do 3x20 second holds before moving on(20 seconds being my half max)? I find 20 seconds is my limit for holding a static without becoming bored with it.

I think it boils down to what amount of time, patience, and temporary discomfort you are willing to put into your training to achieve your desired results. You can try whatever combination of sets, static hold times, and progressions you want but the reality is that 60 seconds means 60 continuous seconds of a solid, stable, and perfectly executed static hold.

60 seconds of static holds is not an arbitrary number thrown out there by Coach to antagonize us with boredom or monotony... when you have put in the time and effort to attain this level of conditioning with an "easier" progression your musculature, connective tissue, and nervous system will have performed the required changes to allow you to properly move on to the next progression and be successful.

As Coach, Josh, and many others have said on this forum and at the seminars; you always increase volume first before intensity to continually make progress and avoid injury.

Try to find a way to make a game out of it.... personally I find it amusing to see exactly how much pain I can tolerate in any given static hold before I give up (hollow body hold is one of my favorites!) Week after week you'll find that your times increase and your threshold for pain will as well!!

-John

Despite doing 2 degrees one via correspondence, working more than full time and living in a foreign country I still put a lot of work and research into my training as I want the best result I can get as does everyone I imagine. The truth is I know myself well enough to know that if something bores me I will eventually start to put less effort into it. At first I will strive hard to do the longer holds but eventually I will probably start putting them off and I think it would be better to do some rather than none at all. Nobody enjoys doing something boring. Working out is something I do for enjoyment and progression it always a good thing so if anyone can give any suggestions as to how to get around my boredom of 20 second statics that would be awesome. I can hold a 50 second L-sit on the floor but I haven't trained more than 15 second holds for that. Hopefully this same approach will work for things such as planche. My thoughts are, instead of moving onto 2x30 seconds Ill just do an extra ssc or 2 of 15-20 sec holds maybe a few more sets or something?

ausswe said:

Despite doing 2 degrees one via correspondence, working more than full time and living in a foreign country I still put a lot of work and research into my training as I want the best result I can get as does everyone I imagine. The truth is I know myself well enough to know that if something bores me I will eventually start to put less effort into it. At first I will strive hard to do the longer holds but eventually I will probably start putting them off and I think it would be better to do some rather than none at all. Nobody enjoys doing something boring. Working out is something I do for enjoyment and progression it always a good thing so if anyone can give any suggestions as to how to get around my boredom of 20 second statics that would be awesome. I can hold a 50 second L-sit on the floor but I haven't trained more than 15 second holds for that. Hopefully this same approach will work for things such as planche. My thoughts are, instead of moving onto 2x30 seconds Ill just do an extra ssc or 2 of 15-20 sec holds maybe a few more sets or something?

You can try 10 seconds, 5 seconds rest, 10 seconds, 5 seconds rest, etc. If you like doing more complicated sets then that might be the answer for you.

The real answer is less fun: Welcome to athletic performance. Athletes practice things that are boring. People who build big benches often do the same things over and over for years. Same goes for big deadlifts and big squats and nice multiple reps of OAC.

I'm not quite sure why 2-3 sets of 20s, performed as part of a circuit, is so mentally devastating but sometimes that's how it is. In those cases, it is best to just find a way to make yourself tired by doing something different... maybe 2 sets to failure or 10s tuck planche followed by PPP to failure or something like that, making sure to come up to straight arms at the end of each rep.

You could also try something similar with a barbell or two dumbbells while lying on your back in a hollow hold after each set, or try to press from tuck L sit to tuck PL repeatedly until failure.

Whatever you do, find a way to build more volume into tuck planches.

Also practice the adv tuck 1-2x per week, but keep the volume low until you're able to hold it for at least 30 seconds. Even then, don't go crazy... take the slower steady route and be safe.

I can see how doing long sets can get boring. Myself, what keeps me going is that I'm motivated to always surpass myself and I know that doing this work is taking me closer and closer to my goal every time I do this. I want to be better than the version of myself that established my last personal records. So it's like a competition vs someone else.

When I started, I also had the mindset that if I wasn't going through the progressions fast enough, it meant that I wasn't making progress. Now though, I understand that doing this extra work is an investment in my future performance. As if I don't do this work now because I'm in a hurry, I'll eventually have to back off due to injury because my body simply wasn't ready.

There's no need to be in a rush really. You won't get stronger if you move on to the next harder progression ASAP with a weak base. You'll just injure yourself, have to stop training for a while, and then have to start back at a lower level than what you were doing. Which might demotivate and frustrate you depending on how passionate you are about this.