Introduction, Programming + Elbows

Hello,

First post here on Gymnastic Bodies so I thought it would be nice to give a short introduction about myself and my goals. It's pretty long though, so don't worry about skipping straight to the part where I ask questions if you're feeling kind enough to take an interest in my problems Thanks in advance to those who post feedback or read my post.

Introduction:

I'm a 19yo male, 5'6'' and I have little experience in strength conditioning past irregular pushup, situp and chinup sessions (I'm naturally good at all of these exercises, despite not being especially lean). I played a reasonable amount of sport at school (high school, not university) and was always pretty good at running. Since I got to university, I've become pretty lazy and stopped exercising until I signed up for a capoeira class a few moths ago, which I enjoyed a lot. I've stopped the capoeira for the time being since I am now back home for the summer and there's no facility to train with anyone here. However, the capoeira inspired me to get back to being a little more active, so after a little bit of internet trawling I came across Coach Sommer's book and these forums, both of which I've been reading through. As I had already been doing chinups, the harder pushup variations I knew about (close pushups, pushups with feet elevated, with one hand disadvantaged) and kettlebell swings, I thought that I could probably make a pretty smooth transition into a GST program. My goals for exercise are to feel sore (yes I enjoy muscle soreness, makes me feel like I'm using my body ) and well exercised, and to build my strength, size and general physical capabilities to my body's healthy, natural limits.I recognize the importance of nutrition in achieving these goals, and I don't really eat any sweets or processed food. I don't particularly try to cut carbs or anything similar but naturally I eat a lot of meat, veg, eggs and other pretty healthy foods.

My Program/Problems:

I first established that I could fulfill each of the prerequisites which I've seen on these forums to start working the FSP, namely 60s hang, plank, reverse plank, hollow and arch holds. None of these were a problem first time round. I then decided to go with the Killroy workout since it involved working out 4 times a week (which I like) as well as doing 5x5 which feels good to me. However, I have now developed a degree of elbow pain in both elbows, and strongly suspect it's due to the fact that I'm doing all 4 FSPs 4 times a week (by this i mean BL,FL,L-sit and handstand, not planche, since I get the strong impression that there's not much point working the planche before I have a full BL and a strong L sit). I've developed light elbow tendonitis in the past from chinups alone and was careful to proceed slowly when I started my chinup routine this time round and didn't have any problems. Here's the program which I drew up:

Day 1: PPP, Elevated Rows on a single bar

Day2: Inverted Chinups, PB dips

Rest Day

Day3: Pullups, Pike HeSPU with my feet resting on a box (so my body is at a more than 90 degree angle)

Day4: HLL with my back to a wall to insure correct form, with the ROM I can currently manage, RLL (I think this is the name of the exercise, it's where you get into a HeS against the wall and then lower your legs to the floor and back up again, like a HeS press, repeatedly)

Rest Dayx2

I walk the dog for an hour each day, sometimes do sprints and kettlebell swings and sledgehammer work on rest days.

The nature of the pain in my elbows seems to suit the description of golfer's elbow, as it's on the inside of the elbow. Accroding to BrainDX's post this is due to excessive pulling, which would make sense given the fact that I previously developed the pain due to chins alone.

My questions are the following:

1/ Since it seems that the pain is as a result of pulling and the straight arm work, which of the above bent arm exercises would it be wise to drop until the pain is gone? This may seem obvious (the pulling and straight arm exercises, duh) but I wouldn't want to continue with an exercise unwittingly which would stop the problem from going away. Also, each exercise seems to casue a significantly different degree of exacerbation; Handstands don't really cause problems, nor do L-sits on the floor even though i do them with hands pointing backwards, while FL, BL (even German Hang) and PPP have much more effect (especially BL+FL). The bent arm exercises apart from PPP (I think it's the straight arm bit at the top which is the problem) really don't seem to have a bad effect at all, even pullups and bicep curls.

2/ What's the best way to build up my elbows for straight arm work? Planche leans with my feet on the floor, progressing by moving hands back slowly, and German Hangs, seem to be the best ways, but I'm unclear if I should be doing both and if not which is harder (which do I progress from and to?)

I have my own ideas about what the best way to proceed would be, based off what I've read, but would be really grateful if anyone could offer some advice who has experienced such problems or who has helped others work through them. My idea would be to cut out BL and FL work and instead work only L-seat progressions on the floor and handstands before each workout, and then incorporate planche leans and german hangs on alternate days or at the frequency where I don't experience any elbow discomfort. I would probably continue this for about 8 weeks (or as long as i want my first SSC to continue) and then see if I can go back to working the levers in place of the leans and hangs, maintaining the alternating day system (alternating workout days that is). In the short term my idea would be to stop doing PPP (maybe do close pushups instead), and keep all the pulling pretty easy and to only start the above (and start PPP again) once the pain is gone (probably a week or 2 from my past experience). I understand that all of this needs to be worked back in very slowly and progressively. I would maybe do a further FBE each day since I'm not doing nearly as much FSP strength work (leans and hangs aren't really strength for me, at least not if worked to the extent that I experience no elbow discomfort) until I could work levers back in.

Wow, this post is gargantuan.

Many, many thanks to the people who had the perseverance to read any or all of this and offer advice!

Fraser

I gotta tell you, I didn't read ALL of that. :oops: I did read most though!

Your arm muscles are too tight and you aren't giving enough time for healing. You need to roll out the forearms and upper arms with a foam roller or lacrosse balls or whatever. "Lacrosse ball SMR" is a good search string to use on google.

You are also probably focusing on strength work, which isn't a good thing to do in your situation. Right now you need to focus on rehab.

By all means, do your strength work first but be smart and only do 2-3 sets per exercise and not more than two exercises per joint. Don't do chins, rows, yewkis, and cleans all for 3 sets, pick two. Right now the pull up variations are a good thing for you as long as you go down to full deadhang position at the end of each rep. Any strength work that doesn't cause issues is fine, but do NOT try to progress here for a few months. You'll get stronger, but don't push. Right now you need to focus on the rehab that needs to happen, and then transition into a more preventative approach to your strength training.

That is the single best thing you can do.

I would also do some work to failure with your hands and fingers, like standing dumbbell finger/hand curls, but that's up to you. Remember, you want slow tempo and lighter weight right now.

Edited by the Naterman.

Joshua Naterman said:

I gotta tell you, I didn't read ALL of that. :oops: I did read most though!

Well that is just hypocritical. Regularly writing novelle-sized forum posts and not reading other's posts when they're that large.

@ Joshua: Heh no problem man looking back it really was unnecessarily long!

Thanks so much for the advice, really really appreciate it. I don't have access to either dumbbells or a barbell, would the bodyweight curls (obviously very easy version/ to the rep scheme that you recommended) on your youtube channel work just as well? If not I'll keep my eye out for some cheap second hand dumbells.

In terms of straight arm positions (which seem to put quite a lot of strain on elbows for me) should I lay off for a while? or maybe just do the ones which are a little less stressful, like L-Sit and handstand?

once again, thanks a lot!

@ Rik: Well I don't mind he answered my questions Also his long posts are actually useful to people whereas mine is mostly waffle

Thanks guys,

Fraser

Rik de Kort said:

Joshua Naterman said:

I gotta tell you, I didn't read ALL of that. :oops: I did read most though!

Well that is just hypocritical. Regularly writing novelle-sized forum posts and not reading other's posts when they're that large.

Helped me feel their pain hahaha!

Fraser said:

@ Joshua: Heh no problem man looking back it really was unnecessarily long!

Thanks so much for the advice, really really appreciate it. I don't have access to either dumbbells or a barbell, would the bodyweight curls (obviously very easy version/ to the rep scheme that you recommended) on your youtube channel work just as well? If not I'll keep my eye out for some cheap second hand dumbells.

In terms of straight arm positions (which seem to put quite a lot of strain on elbows for me) should I lay off for a while? or maybe just do the ones which are a little less stressful, like L-Sit and handstand?

once again, thanks a lot!

@ Rik: Well I don't mind he answered my questions Also his long posts are actually useful to people whereas mine is mostly waffle

Thanks guys,

Fraser

Maybe, you'll have to see. I suggest dumbbells. And by dumbbells, you can use gallon containers full of sand. They get to about 20 lbs, which will be more than you can use for the light work even if you're as strong as me.

Straight arm: Whatever feels fine. Just go for the easiest version. That's straight arm plank, German Hang, and tuck FL.

Ah ok, good idea.

Thanks very much for the advice!

Fraser

Hey, I thought that rather than make a new topic I would just ask this question here since it's probably reasonably minor.

So, as I understand it, the SSC is a great method of progression for gymnastics Statics because the strain on the tendons (as I now know ) is considerable, and they need a long time to repair, so far below maximal effort and slow improvements are good rules of thumb. In terms of exercises such as dips or pullups, there's not really the same strain on the tendons, so is it OK to follow a scheme of attempting to improve by a rep every workout for the first few weeks, or half, of your SSC, and then maintaining the new level? Or is it better to stick to the same formula as for the statics and only increase periodically in volume and intensity to ensure mastery of the form and to prevent burnout? The only reason I ask is because I get the impression that weightlifting largely follows the premise that you can increase reps more often than every 8-12 weeks, and for exercises like the chinup I see no real difference.

I do recognize that it isnt the case for progressing to a new variation of an exercise since this could have a tendon/connective tissue element and the increase isn't as simple/quantitative as adding a few pounds to a bar.

I have also heeded your advice Joshua and won't be personally adding reps for the next few months, this was just a matter of curiosity and for the future.

Thanks very much,

Fraser

Fraser said:

- is it OK to follow a scheme of attempting to improve by a rep every workout for the first few weeks, or half, of your SSC, and then maintaining the new level?

- Or is it better to stick to the same formula as for the statics and only increase periodically in volume and intensity to ensure mastery of the form and to prevent burnout?

No, that would not be an SSC, but something else; maybe it works for you? SSC comprises an overload, stable, and under load phase; changes and increases during the cycle are cutting the last phases short.

Yes, but be very careful with increasing volume AND intensity simultaneously; always increase volume first. You are correct to focus on shape and form.

@Fred: Hey, thanks very much for your answers

I don't know if increasing more often than a SSC for FBE volume works for me or not, as I said in my post I'm gonna be taking it easy for a few months to allow my biceps to heal up. I was more asking the reasoning for adopting a SSC for FBEs when I don't see the major difference between a FBE and a weightlifting exercise if there is little or negligible tendon strength involved. Am I mistaken in saying that something like a dip isn't taxing to the tendons, or at least not more taxing than many weightlifting exercises? I'm not really asking because I want to do it myself, just asking out of interest.

And by the way concerning the original topic of the thread, I've followed your recommendations for a few days Josh and my biceps and elbow tendons feel much healthier and better already; SMR rocks, and there are some vids on the joint forum about exercises for tendonitis which have also made them feel much much more comfortable. Luckily I think I am catching it in early stages. Once again, thanks so much for the advice.

Thanks guys,

Fraser

For bent arm work, I would not bother with an SSC unless you are injured.

I would focus on form exclusively, and not worry about reps at all. Just go to failure for 2-3 sets 3 days per week and you will see good progress, but failure MUST happen with good form. This will require constant tension... you will not get the results you want with explosive reps. 2-3s down and up is a minimum, with NO stretch reflex at the bottom. The best thing to do is to pause for .25-.5s at the bottom if you aren't good at slowing down and changing directions without using the stretch reflex.

Later on it will be a good idea to build the stretch reflex, and right now if you wanted to do that once per week or for a warm up set that's fine, but make sure you get the vast majority of your work done with constant tension and perfect form. That's the only way to GUARANTEE consistent progress and proper strength development.

There are many roads to get there, but this is the only guaranteed route to success and it takes the least time. Make sure your nutrition is pretty decent or you won't see the results you want!

There are many roads to get there, but this is the only guaranteed route to success and it takes the least time

This is a pretty bold claim. What is your justification for saying this, Joshua?

Thanks in advance for any replies

Joshua Naterman said:

There are many roads to get there, but this is the only guaranteed route to success ...

Really? I would say that my own athletes have done moderately well 8) and they have never used this protocol.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

nf46 said:

There are many roads to get there, but this is the only guaranteed route to success and it takes the least time

This is a pretty bold claim. What is your justification for saying this, Joshua?

Thanks in advance for any replies

This is primarily referring to constant tension + perfect form with movement, and the justification is simple. This is the only way to make sure that all the relevant tissues are being worked.

This is why kipping muscle ups never build slow muscle ups or the shoulder girdle strength necessary to move on to more advanced work, while the slow muscle up progressions do.

I really like plate curls for elbow flexors. Word of advice though be conservative on the weight, or length of 2x4 you use. Oh and use your offhand to protect your face if you use a long piece of wood.

@Josh: Thanks man I really do appreciate this stuff, I did a light workout using a metronome yesterday and the slow reps really make previously easy-seeming exercises much harder, especially with a pause at the bottom and none at the top.

@Nic: I looked those up and they look like a tough exercise, I'll give them a go with some improvised weight. Just to confirm, strengthening these muscles will alleviate elbow pain? I am still not entirely clear on how these things arise, I was under the impression it was just too much weight/stretch on the tendons, is it a matter of muscular imbalance too?

Are there any resources which would allow me to make an appropriate periodisation (I think periodisation is the word I mean... the equivalent of a SSC plan, or to express it differently, how many weeks of hard work/improvement, how many of rest, how much time focusing on intensity and how much time on volume, if I should alternate them or just do one of them, etc) scheme for my FBEs? I would prefer to be pointed to a resource where I can learn about these things myself rather than you guys just provide a "black box" answer, if possible I have had a look myself but there is a degree of contradiction across different protocols to say the least xD

Once again, thanks very much indeed, so good to learn this stuff.

Fraser

That's going to be hard for you to find. Everyone who writes about periodization is going to have an opinion, but some science for you: It takes 4-6 weeks to fully synthesize new sarcomeres and certain proteins within the sarcomere. For this reason alone, you would want to focus on a minimum of 6 weeks on tissue development, which is primarily volume work. It takes 8-10 weeks to fully peak, so if you were to intentionally try and peak (which is what high intensity work really is doing) you would want to take 8-10 weeks and focus on intensification.

There is really no sense in fully breaking these things apart unless you are a track athlete, powerlifter, olympic lifter or to a certain extent a competitive gymnast, but even then you will always have both elements in your workouts.

A peaking cycle simply consists of a shift towards more intense work while a volume cycle shifts more towards a higher rep approach. You do NOT need to just do one or the other, and you really shouldn't either.

Just do exactly that: when working volume, don't do more than 1 heavy set per day per exercise. When working intensity, don't do more than 1-2 light sets. That way you can maintain the majority of your ability in both areas while still getting the vast, vast majority (and on the volume side EXTRA) of the results from your training.

If you aren't specifically going for a competitive performance on a set date that is a single effort, there is absolutely no sense in just doing intensification work.

Periodization as Josh said has man variables and many opinions. The volume/intensity can work well for development following 2 week blocks if you like. Far from the only method but an easy one to try. Early on you really are better off reading as much as you can and following the basics as laid out.

Man variables are tricky beasts.

maybe quick typing on an iPad is not ideal for posting lol