help with front lever

Patto said:

Yeah I understand that weighted pullups are not necessary, and as Coach said he rarely gets his athletes to perform them. The thing that interested me was the idea that being able to do an exercise with 'X' amount of weight is equivilant to being able to perform another type of exercise.

There is no equivalence between different exercises, for then they wouldn't be different exercises. There is only carryover.

I have a 5 secs front lever (depending on the day really, sometimes just 2 secs, but i can hold it, somedays i can't) and i can do +50% bodyweight chinups for 5 reps. Never done weighted chins or pullups on a regular basis and i do them ocasionally just for testing.

For me the best things to achive it were full FL negatives from inverted hang to hang until i had the strength to stoped at parallel. That was some years ago. Now i can mantain it simply doing sometimes the position at full, and sometimes i do adv tuck for 20 secs or so, and sometimes adv FL rows. After a few workouts doing this the full FL returns if it was lost.

I found the carryover from FL to weighted chinsups or regular pullups. I think i can do almost 20 pullups without doing them at all (well thats not really true, i dont do pullup series, but of course i do muscleups to do ring series).

Now i'm doing rope climbing every week, and i think it has helped me a lot to consolidate it.

Assisted oac help me in front lever, but the thing that help me a lot is working 2 workout a week a front lever basic form, like tuck or advanced tuck in 4-5x20-30", and 1-2 workout a week in straddle front lever 6-7x3-4" now. I starded working this 1 month ago, and when I start I had 12" adv tuck, progress are fast with high time isometric hold.

For me the best things to achive it were full FL negatives from inverted hang to hang until i had the strength to stoped at parallel.

One of the best exercises to achieve the FL.

I just achieved full FL 1.5-2 months ago, and I had been training weighted pullups/chinups consistently as assistance work along with the progressions.

At a bodyweight of about 125 lbs, I worked up to be able to chin 55-60 lbs 5x and pullup 45-50 lbs 5x (of course fullest possible ROM: deadhang to chest to bar), which is 40-45% BW for me.

This obviously helped my general pulling strength, but from personal experience I think the best way to really tackle the full FL is to do the actual progressions as some others have said. Namely, increasing hold times for the 1 leg extended 1 leg bent and straddle FLs were beneficial. I think tuck and advanced tuck FL pullups helped slightly as well.

I hope sharing my personal experience helps!

B1214N said:

Patto said:

Hey where did you hear that the equilivant pulling strength you need to perform a front lever is a pull up with 80% bodyweight? Is this correct? I think things like this are very useful when trying to gauge where we are at with different skills. It gives us a realistic idea of how far off a skill we might be.

For example I remember on Beastskills.com they recommend being able to do chinups with 70% bodyweight as a pre requesite to starting one arm chinup training.

Has anyone heard any other tips like this in regards to different skills? Does anyone agree with the 80% bodyweight pullups and pulling strength for a front lever?

Well I heard it from some members from this forum and other forums. I achieved a front lever using only FL progressions and bodyweight pulling exercises, but at one point when I could only hold a half lay FL for about 2 seconds, I tested my weighted pull-up max and could do one with half bodyweight attached without having done any weighted pull-ups in the past. So I think that fits with the comparison that FL = about 180% BW pull-up.

Having one might not guarantee the other, but it would be nice if people who just achieved a FL would test their max weighted pull-up to see how well this comparison is. Don't forget that the 180% BW pull-up is only a measure of pulling strength and FL requires a strong core as well. To measure the necessary core strength for front lever, you would need to be able to do a body lever.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to say that one exercise with X amount of weight enables you to do another exercise, just that it may be a partially accurate comparison of the same strength requirements for the two exercises and should not be seen as always true unless it is proven true.

Why isn't it a 150% BW pull up if you noticed you could do +50% BW? 100 +50 = 180? How?

Joshua Naterman said:

Why isn't it a 150% BW pull up if you noticed you could do +50% BW? 100 +50 = 180? How?

Because you misread, silly! He could hold a half lay FL for 2 seconds.

My gymnastic instructor says to don't retract scapula, but to hollow body like in planche, mantaining shoulder closed.

Why this different way to hold front lever?

Now I'm doing adv tuck 4-5x20" 2 workout a week, and half full lay negatives plus straddle fl hold 6-7x3-4" 1-2 times a week.

For FL although you're scapulas are protracted you must do the force for retracting them, the gravity will take care to protract them because your body wants to go to the floor.

So you actively have to try to retract them (although you may be fully protracted and in a hollow position) trying to get out of the hollow position, you can hold the front lever with the hollow position but you will doing the force to get out or it.

In other words try to pull the bar forcing your shoulder to move in direction of the floor (trying to retract scapulas), and with the hands pull the bar to the hips. If you only do the strength with your arms you'll fail. The other thing to consider is to fully contract your abs and for me works well to try to move the legs to each other (induction) in order to be fully straight.

Why isn't it a 150% BW pull up if you noticed you could do +50% BW? 100 +50 = 180? How?

150% BW pull-up was when I was able to hold half lay FL for 2 seconds and around 180% BW is supposedly at full FL. I've just very recently reattained my full FL, but since I'm on summer break from college, I don't have access to any gym so I can't test my max weighted pull-up, but I'm certain that I can pull-up around 180% BW now. As a side, I'm also close to reattaining my OAP and I remember that FL for around 7 seconds gives me a OAP the first time I got it.

It's interesting that you can hold FL for around 2-3 seconds, but can barely pull-up with +40% of BW. From what you said about pull-ups neglecting certain muscles like the anconeus that are needed in the straight arm FL, shouldn't that not affect your FL to pull-up strength transfer or is it because of elbow flexor strength that is limiting your max weighted pull-ups?

serotonin said:

For FL although you're scapulas are protracted you must do the force for retracting them, the gravity will take care to protract them because your body wants to go to the floor.

So you actively have to try to retract them (although you may be fully protracted and in a hollow position) trying to get out of the hollow position, you can hold the front lever with the hollow position but you will doing the force to get out or it.

In other words try to pull the bar forcing your shoulder to move in direction of the floor (trying to retract scapulas), and with the hands pull the bar to the hips. If you only do the strength with your arms you'll fail. The other thing to consider is to fully contract your abs and for me works well to try to move the legs to each other (induction) in order to be fully straight.

You can certainly get close to a fully retracted scapula in the FL if your scapula retractors are strong enough. You can also do a protracted FL without trying to retract at all, It probably requires the pulling muscles to work harder since they cannot optimize force production in protraction. I've done that for my first FL before I knew that you are supposed to retract.

I think the reason why gymnastic coaches tell us to retract for FL is to build strong scap retractors and maybe because it is bad for the shoulders in the long term if your leave it protracted. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Coach will probably have more specifics on why he prefers active retraction, but the most basic thing is that it keeps the entire shoulder girdle more balanced. You ARE stronger this way, but your traps have to be strong enough to maintain a fairly neutral shoulder position (which looks pretty retracted when you're on your back, but it's nowhere near full retraction) for you to benefit from the position. That's the whole point. The one area that most people neglect is the traps.

This also helps prevent shoulder injuries in the long run.

I do not want fully retracted scaps during a FL ... Nor do I want fully protracted.

It is difficult to explain, however it is quite easy to 'feel' with assistance. Zach came the closest to explaining it properly; you will be attempting to retract the the scaps slightly but the load of the exercise will prevent you from achieving full retraction. When I personally work FL, rather than distinctive retracting or protracting what I primarily feel are the "scaps" widening (not sure how to explain this better).

To test the veracity of whether or not a FL should be strongly retracted, simply get into an inverted hang on a single bar (do not allow the legs to curve over the top of the bar). Note that in order to maintain stability your scapula will automatically protract. Now while maintaining the inverted hang, attempt to fully retract the scapula. You will be unable to do so without falling out of the inverted hang.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That makes sense, that it feels like them widening. That's a good way to say it. I think that has a lot to do with the external rotators, teres major and long head of the triceps all firing at the same time... that's a lot of muscle on the scapula that doesn't normally work together, and you'd definitely feel it as a "widening."

When people say 150% weighted chin, do they usually mean 1 rep or several reps?

seiyafan said:

When people say 150% weighted chin, do they usually mean 1 rep or several reps?

If you have a 150% BW chinup, you can do at least 1 rep with 50% of your bodyweight added.

If you can do 150% BW chins for reps, you can do more.