help with front lever

i am currently resting off the rings due to aching in my arms(just done a post for this) but i am struggling to get a full front lever, in the picture that is as how far i can go but that was for about a second lol.

i have had my gymnastic rings for about 2 months, currently i am just mixing things together, like circuits pull ups variations press up variations, then i will do front tuck levers and negatives. l sits sits the cat and then some iron cross work.

i also do the front lever exercise with one leg straight and other one bent, what exercise will help me get there? think its my core what is letting me down because my back is pretty strong.

the core exercise i do are just the exercises i have mentioned above and i have just started to practice the hollow body position and do some crunches with back flat against the floor.

when i am training i will usually do some tuck front lever for about 20-30seconds for about 2-3sets , then do some negatives and skin the cat. then i will finish off with some l sits (legs straight) for a couple sets of 20 30 seconds.all these exercises will be done before or after body weight and weight exercise.

p.s i can do about 12-16 wide grips pulls about 22 or more inverted rows and about 24 dips, i do also add weight on these exercises before you ask =)

so what exercises can i do to help me achieve this?

should my upper back be more rounded? (seen this on youtube)

Moderator edit - OP's other posts made the same day combined here -

for about two years i have had an aching sensation in my right hand, feels like i need to stretch it all the time, it also clicks and cracks. i do stretch it regular and do some trigger point work with a cricket ball not sure what to do with it.

i am also right handed and have pain in the right elbow at times and had a bad right shoulder for a while. my shoulder is better for me to train but its still not 100 percent

any ideas for me?

hey i have had some gymnastic rings for about 2 months, currently i am just mixing things together, like circuits pull ups variations press up variations and single leg work, then i will do front tuck levers and negatives. l sits sits the cat and then some iron cross work.

but the other day when i was doing the the front tuck lever i was getting an ache at the side of my arms close to my elbows. so i rested and foam rolled my arms then tried it again the week after put it was still there

anybody get the same problem?

how can i fix this?

I'm going to put aside your question and address a more immediate concern regarding the iron cross. You should not be doing iron cross work until you have achieved all of the prerequisites found here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1988#p12726. Since you've had a pair of rings for only 2 months, my guess is that you probably don't have a solid XR handstand.

Furthermore, this is probably a leading factor contributing to your elbow pain.

Concerning your front lever, I don't think you're ready for full lay since it is piked at the hips and you can only hold it for second. Since you are doing sets of 20 seconds for a tuck lever, I suggest you start a steady state cycle for the tuck and that you don't progress onwards until you've achieved a 60 second flat tuck front lever. This would take a minimum of 6 months, possibly more, until you can move on to steady state the straddle.

If you are too impatient for steady state cycles, I've read that grease the groove works well with front lever.

Your upper back should be flat, the scapulae retracted.

It's hard to see from the photo, but it looks like your elbows are slightly bent. Try working on getting that bend out of your elbows.

Also, contrary to what a lot of people say, all lever skills take some core strength, but not a whole lot. Compared to what's required of your shoulders, it's next to nothing. If you can hold the hollow position on the floor for 30 seconds or more, then you have PLENTY of core strength.

Mainly just keep working on it. These plateaus happen to just about everyone. You said you weighted your pullups, why not try weighting your front lever? Put weight around your ankles for the most increase in difficulty, around your waist for middle difficulty, and by your shoulders for pretty much no change. This is a good way to change up the same old stale routine.

*EDIT* The shoes will make the skill quite a bit harder!

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8476&hilit=John+ma Just copy and paste that. It discusses the reason why we need that flat back. Idk where you got that rounded idea from. But you were starting iron cross work WAY to early. Note that building up to these moves should be taking months to properly prepare the bicep tendon. There are a few good posts here discussing ways to work up the Fl. Scavenge around here, I'm sre you find out a lot. If your goal is to just master the FSPs then I would say that following the WODs would probably get you there. P.S. They're a lot of fun.

Well you can check if you have adequate core strength for the full lay front lever or not by seeing if you can do body levers in full lay or holding a full lay body lever at horizontal since body levers require as much core strength as front levers. You can also check what your max weighted pull-up is to give an idea of your pulling strength because I heard that full front lever is equivalent to a pull-up with ~ 80% of bodyweight added for comparison of pulling strength.

Based on your picture, I'm guessing you can hold a good straddle or half lay front lever for at least a couple seconds right? Lastly, you should strive to retract your scapulae rather then leave them protracted or rounded.

I combined your other two posts into this one, since this thread already had replies.

Nothing wrong with your making three posts, but in this case they all go together to form a picture.

You need to start working on building a foundation by doing Fundamental Static Positions -pre requisite work! You also need to do some sort of mobility work as well as strength work.

And, at least if you are interested in a program like Gymnastic Bodies, you need to be more methodical about your programing not anal or obsessive, methodical. No one makes gains doing random exercises.

Perhaps most importantly, you need to scale down and let your injuries heal and give your body time to adapt.

Part of this will be helped by getting the book if you don't have it. (And getting the new edition when it comes out!)

Then look at the Killroy70 thread and make a similar program for yourself - post that here and we can give some specific feedback. When you make that post also give a little background info on yourself, like you did here, that's always really helpful.

You'll hvae to spend a little time doing this, but will learn a lot in the process. If you get stuck, ask.

Regarding the wrist and elbow this simple mobility exercise has been helpful for many -

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5960

And as Paradox said - STOP THE IRON CROSS WORK! It's a one way ticket to injuryville without proper preparation.

Get in an easier variation of th Front Lever and work on:

Scapula retraction and being able to hold that for time.

Pulling your neck back

One exercise that helped me ALOT was Scapula pull ups. Do a pull up with straight arms and only concentrate on retracting the scapula and at the same time pulling with your neck.

Look at the head/neck position

Rob4puvkpy8

So it is possible to have Scapula retraction in a hollow body? I thought to keep body hollow I need to keep upper back round by protracting scapula.

It depends on what you are doing. In the case of FL the scaps are also pulling.

seiyafan said:

So it is possible to have Scapula retraction in a hollow body? I thought to keep body hollow I need to keep upper back round by protracting scapula.

It's not only possible, but it's correct form in a front lever. Along with retraction, the scapulae should also be depressed.

Hollow should not necessarily refer to the body shape as a whole, but rather the positioning of the body parts. I think you are perhaps mistaken in thinking that the "banana" shape is what defines the hollow body. The defining feature of the hollow is the flat lumbar spine. The neck should also be packed in. The t-spine will maintain a small curve in the lever (up to 15 degrees).

Now, in planche, the scapulae would be protracted. This does not change the fact that the l-spine will be flat, maintaining the hollow body position.

hey cheers for the replies

paradox regarding iron cross alls i am doing is supporting my body on the ring with my hands slightly wider than shoulder width and holding for time, is that o.k?

hoolingan weighted front lever sounds good =) i will try it.

toast yeah that was an interesting post, the wods seem to be to skillful for me tho

b12 14 i will try the body levers. ive not tried it straddle only one out straight other one bent. and i did pull 5 reps at 16 kg but i could of gone higher just building up slowly, but i will work up to the 80 percent =)

cole dano, at first i thought where has my post gone lol. so shall i just do front tuck levers for buliding up to a minute, but wouldn't i benefit doing some harder variations aswell? cheers for the wrist mobilty thread =)

mats trane looking good in the vid, i will try them scap pull ups

i think next time it will easier to reply to each person in different replies lol

so yeah i don't do the wods because alot of the exercises are to skillful for me. so that's why i just do exercises that feel like doing

and getting stronger in them. i also do a leg session on there on (single leg training)

currently i want to learn to do a handstand, front lever and long term a planche (if i can ever do one ) a muscle up which seem very tough, and then a few rolls n that

i weigh about 82 kg, at the moment i just want to get stronger and leaner , and then in a few months

i want to put on a few kilograms.

what other core exercise can i do for mainly for strength but also getting better looking abs?

assistance exercises for the front lever?

also what about the aching in my arm?

what is a xr support hold? and 1/2 press?

when i do press ups on the rings my wrists should or should not touch the rings?

KRUDDY123 said:

i weigh about 82 kg, at the moment i just want to get stronger and leaner , and then in a few months

i want to put on a few kilograms.

Just a forewarning, your going to have trouble putting on pounds using the rings. If you look at a lot of the guys who train on the rings religiously, they're not much heavier than 68 kg. Granted genetics plays a part, it's going to be tough to actually gain weight. Your going to be stronger and leaner, that's for sure, but not too much heavier.

KRUDDY123 said:

what other core exercise can i do for mainly for strength but also getting better looking abs?

Better looking abs has a lot to do with BF%. Try to drop that as low as possible. Remember how I said the rings aren't too good for putting on weight? They happen to be extremely good for dropping BF%. A lot of ringman don't do too many ab exercises, but have borderline disgusting looking abs.

KRUDDY123 said:

assistance exercises for the front lever?

Try using elastic bands for assistance, or get a friend to spot you. You can also drop down a progression and weight it. Eg. If your working on the advanced tuck front lever, do the regular tuck front lever weighted.

KRUDDY123 said:

also what about the aching in my arm?

This stuff will happen. I don't have much advice for you other than give it some rest.

KRUDDY123 said:

when i do press ups on the rings my wrists should or should not touch the rings?

Whenever you do anything on the rings, your wrists shouldn't touch. It's alright if they do in the beginning, but it's something to try and not do.

hooligan your as star

, yeah defo going to try the weighted tuck leaver next week.

yeah i'm just gonna rest and foam roll my arms some more hopefully that will be.

i know what your saying about weight gain, i will just do more weights as well when i plan to put some weight, i'm just gonna focus on rehab at moment and get a strong core for now =)

hooligan8200 said:

KRUDDY123 said:

i weigh about 82 kg, at the moment i just want to get stronger and leaner , and then in a few months

i want to put on a few kilograms.

Just a forewarning, your going to have trouble putting on pounds using the rings. If you look at a lot of the guys who train on the rings religiously, they're not much heavier than 68 kg. Granted genetics plays a part, it's going to be tough to actually gain weight. Your going to be stronger and leaner, that's for sure, but not too much heavier.

Uhhhh wouldn't this be more related to diet? If youre getting surplus calories plus working in slightly higher rep ranges (although 3-5 would still do this) you will put on mass, be it with weights or bulgarian xr dips... :?

igm503 said:

Uhhhh wouldn't this be more related to diet? If youre getting surplus calories plus working in slightly higher rep ranges (although 3-5 would still do this) you will put on mass, be it with weights or bulgarian xr dips... :?

Yeah this is getting into a hairy area that I don't know a whole lot about. Not sure on all of this, but it'll be my .02. Weight loss is based a LOT on diet, less calories in means more weight lost. Pretty simple. With gaining weight (muscle), more calories in doesn't necessarily mean more weight gained. Sure, eat 10k calories a day, you'll get heavier. It will all be fat which we don't want nor care about. It's not like you can eat 10x your daily value of protein and gain 10x the amount of muscle. Doesn't work like that.

With proper diet and programming, you CAN gain weight with the rings. I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was more difficult than weights. This is also assuming he will go on to the more advanced exercises on the rings. Anybody who is moderately decent on the rings in terms of strength will have a hard time breaking 180-200 pounds. Any heavier, and the skills they have suddenly become much more difficult. Too make them easier, that have 2 options. Get even stronger or lose weight. If OP was looking to gain weight using only the rings, he would want to focus on the simpler skills such as push ups, pull ups, etc. Moving on to planches and crosses will only be kind of counter effective.

Again, not 100% sure. Take the advice with a grain of salt. I don't know how to physiologically prove my point. I just am describing what I have physically seen over the years.

igm503 said:

hooligan8200 said:

KRUDDY123 said:

i weigh about 82 kg, at the moment i just want to get stronger and leaner , and then in a few months

i want to put on a few kilograms.

Just a forewarning, your going to have trouble putting on pounds using the rings. If you look at a lot of the guys who train on the rings religiously, they're not much heavier than 68 kg. Granted genetics plays a part, it's going to be tough to actually gain weight. Your going to be stronger and leaner, that's for sure, but not too much heavier.

Uhhhh wouldn't this be more related to diet? If youre getting surplus calories plus working in slightly higher rep ranges (although 3-5 would still do this) you will put on mass, be it with weights or bulgarian xr dips... :?

yeah true mate i would use them aswell, but not sure if they would be enough exercises

and why would i just use the rings when i have got weights available? and if i would just use the rings for the basic exercise i am doing, its harder to use progressive overload, and the reps would get to high and there's only so much weight you can add to some of the exercise i am doing

Do you have the book? The Gymnastic Strength Training™ exercises are progressively more demanding and the progressions are clearly laid out there. The progressions are the bodyweight equivalent of throwing another plate on the bar.

Regarding diet, search start looking at the stickied thread by Joshua Naterman in the nutrition subforum.

And, forgive me if I wrong about the rest of your training, but I going to once again submit to you that the lack of any kind of organized programing is contributing to the lack of results.

Cole Dano said:

Do you have the book? The Gymnastic Strength Training™ exercises are progressively more demanding and the progressions are clearly laid out there. The progressions are the bodyweight equivalent of throwing another plate on the bar.

Regarding diet, search start looking at the stickied thread by Joshua Naterman in the nutrition subforum.

And, forgive me if I wrong about the rest of your training, but I going to once again submit to you that the lack of any kind of organized programing is contributing to the lack of results.

no i am going to get the book next month,

yeah i will check out the nutrition forum cheers.

no my training is going well i am seeing results, i never said that i'm not seeing results lol,its just the front lever that has stalled at the moment everything else is good

Hey where did you hear that the equilivant pulling strength you need to perform a front lever is a pull up with 80% bodyweight? Is this correct? I think things like this are very useful when trying to gauge where we are at with different skills. It gives us a realistic idea of how far off a skill we might be.

For example I remember on Beastskills.com they recommend being able to do chinups with 70% bodyweight as a pre requesite to starting one arm chinup training.

Has anyone heard any other tips like this in regards to different skills? Does anyone agree with the 80% bodyweight pullups and pulling strength for a front lever?

Other than the odd turn every 3 or 4 years, weighted pullups are not a part of my athletes regular conditioning.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Patto said:

Hey where did you hear that the equilivant pulling strength you need to perform a front lever is a pull up with 80% bodyweight? Is this correct? I think things like this are very useful when trying to gauge where we are at with different skills. It gives us a realistic idea of how far off a skill we might be.

For example I remember on Beastskills.com they recommend being able to do chinups with 70% bodyweight as a pre requesite to starting one arm chinup training.

Has anyone heard any other tips like this in regards to different skills? Does anyone agree with the 80% bodyweight pullups and pulling strength for a front lever?

No way. I can still hold one now for 2-3s and I don't think I can do proper form with even +40% BW pull ups right now.

You can't expect direct carryovers from bent arm to straight arm because straight arm pulling exercises are inherently limited by the small muscles that lock out the elbow (anconeus), and everything that attaches directly to the scapula. Those muscles are virtually always less trained by bent arm work than by straight arm work, though there are some exceptions. Those muscles that are "missed" with the bent arm work will make you much weaker than you think you should be on the straight arm pulling exercises.

Weighted pull ups aren't necessary, but they do help. They will NOT help anywhere near as much if you don't go down to a full lockout. I tell people this all the time, and some listen... that full lockout is what forces you to use a lot of those muscles that get neglected during like 90% of pull ups ROM. Doesn't matter if there is extra weight or not... JUST getting that lockout makes a big difference in the long run.

Yeah I understand that weighted pullups are not necessary, and as Coach said he rarely gets his athletes to perform them. The thing that interested me was the idea that being able to do an exercise with 'X' amount of weight is equivilant to being able to perform another type of exercise. I thought this would be an interesting way to gauge where one was at when it came to performing or training certain skills. But as you say, strength in one type of exercise does not necessarily carry over to another

Patto said:

Hey where did you hear that the equilivant pulling strength you need to perform a front lever is a pull up with 80% bodyweight? Is this correct? I think things like this are very useful when trying to gauge where we are at with different skills. It gives us a realistic idea of how far off a skill we might be.

For example I remember on Beastskills.com they recommend being able to do chinups with 70% bodyweight as a pre requesite to starting one arm chinup training.

Has anyone heard any other tips like this in regards to different skills? Does anyone agree with the 80% bodyweight pullups and pulling strength for a front lever?

Well I heard it from some members from this forum and other forums. I achieved a front lever using only FL progressions and bodyweight pulling exercises, but at one point when I could only hold a half lay FL for about 2 seconds, I tested my weighted pull-up max and could do one with half bodyweight attached without having done any weighted pull-ups in the past. So I think that fits with the comparison that FL = about 180% BW pull-up.

Having one might not guarantee the other, but it would be nice if people who just achieved a FL would test their max weighted pull-up to see how well this comparison is. Don't forget that the 180% BW pull-up is only a measure of pulling strength and FL requires a strong core as well. To measure the necessary core strength for front lever, you would need to be able to do a body lever.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to say that one exercise with X amount of weight enables you to do another exercise, just that it may be a partially accurate comparison of the same strength requirements for the two exercises and should not be seen as always true unless it is proven true.