Holy Crap This Was Unexpected

Hello Ladies and Gents,

Today I tried some "Hollow" Headstand Pushups by placing my hands as close to a wall as possible and kicking up into a "back to wall" position but then tried to get my butt to touch the wall and upper back to touch the wall as well, making my body as straight as I can to emulate a "Hollow" handstand position despite it not being perfect it's close.

I then proceeded to do a set of headstand pushups this way and Holy Crap, I could only bust out 3 MAX with a ton of effort, while I can do around 8 solid reps of "Arched headstand pushups" A.K.A the one from Convict Conditioning. I did not expect a hollow handstand pushup to be so much harder.

Is this normal? It's a ridiculous difference, made me feel like an utter weakling. Also another question, is a "Back to wall" handstand a good enough way to train hollow headstand pushups? I try to keep my body in as straight of a line as possible and keep my shoulders pushed back or "opened" as some gymnasts would like to call it, and try to keep my glutes and upper back as close to the wall as I can, however I cannot lay my lower back completely flat against the wall and I hope this is reasonable. I cannot work stomach to wall handstands because I fell once and being 6'1 it wasn't a pretty fall, and I was afraid ever since because I injured my tailbone that way.

I appreciate any comments

I imagine the balance is one part, but the change in leverage probably hits your deltoids slightly differently - similar to "superman pushups" vs "pseudo-planche pushups"

phrak said:

I imagine the balance is one part, but the change in leverage probably hits your deltoids slightly differently - similar to "superman pushups" vs "pseudo-planche pushups"

Thanks for the reply, yes it makes sense that the slightly different angle shifts the weight away from the upper pectorals and anterior deltoids more to the lateral deltoids. Although balance should be a minimal factor since I used a wall.

Again thanks for your input

CalisthenicGod said:

I then proceeded to do a set of headstand pushups this way and Holy Crap, I could only bust out 3 MAX with a ton of effort, while I can do around 8 solid reps of "Arched headstand pushups" A.K.A the one from Convict Conditioning. I did not expect a hollow handstand pushup to be so much harder.

I would have expected a CalisthenicGod to have been able to do at least 4 reps!

CalisthenicGod said:

Thanks for the reply, yes it makes sense that the slightly different angle shifts the weight away from the upper pectorals and anterior deltoids more to the lateral deltoids. Although balance should be a minimal factor since I used a wall.

You are correct, the change in difficulty had very little to do with the balance and everything to do with how much more difficult basic FBEs are when performed with correct scapular position.

This order of magnitude increase in difficulty during an FBE also helps to explain why advanced exercises on the still rings like the maltese are literally impossible for most fitness enthusiasts who have not systematically and progressively prepared themselves for the rigors of GST.

It is also important to note here that making FBEs more demanding through correct scapular positioning is not an attempt to make something harder simply for the sake of doing so.

With lower level gymnastics strength elements, it is possible to perform them incorrectly utilizing the arms as the primary movers while under utilizing the shoulder girdle and hence give yourself the illusion of GST progress. However with higher level gymnastics strength elements (planche, iron cross, maltese etc) this is not even a remote possibility. The higher the level of gymnastics strength element involved, the higher the necessity of the shoulder girdle being the primary mover with the arms being relegated to secondary status as long as the strength of the brachialis is adequate.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for the reply Coach, and I like your sense of humor . I'm not a Calisthenic God yet but I will be in a few years of divine training! I really appreciate an answer from someone that has professional experience on this matter and is very busy, thanks again Coach.

It's completely mind-blowing how much more difficult the headstand pushup can be made by simply pushing your hands further towards the back of your head (open shoulder position) and trying to make the body in a straighter line. Anybody out there who hasn't tried it yet should definitely try it out, it'll completely humble you. I always thought I was pretty good at handstand pushups but I was wrong (I used to do the CC wall-supported type).

My last question is:

I know most people recommend a "stomach to wall" handstand to promote a hollow body and fix the alignment. However I'm wondering if a "back to wall" handstand could have the same benefit if you try your hardest to keep your shoulders open, touch your upper back, glutes and feet to the wall and do your best to keep your body in a straight line. I much prefer kicking up into a wall handstand rather than walking up into a wall handstand because I can bail out much easier (I don't want to get my tailbone injured again).

Thanks

The problem with the back to wall handstand is that you can try your hardest, but the stomach to wall handstand is much more foolproof, because I can assure you you will be arching in a BTW HS, just because your feet have to reach to the wall, while they should be directly above your fingertips.

Maybe you need to learn how to roll out of a handstand

This is something high on my list too... Maybe someone has advice on how to get started to learn this skill?

Rik de Kort said:

The problem with the back to wall handstand is that you can try your hardest, but the stomach to wall handstand is much more foolproof, because I can assure you you will be arching in a BTW HS, just because your feet have to reach to the wall, while they should be directly above your fingertips.

Thanks for the input, I guess it is more foolproof but for my personal safety/health's sake a back to wall handstand is a better option in those terms. I try to keep my hands as close to the wall as possible to minimize the arch much as possible.

my floor is hard wood so I cannot afford to roll on that without messing up my spine and I don't have any soft mats of any sort, and I really do not want to put my clean blanket I use to sleep on the dirty floor.

Again thanks for the input folks

Trust me, I learned this the hard way, if you only go back to the wall you will almost certainly have defects in your HS.

There is a time and place for back to the wall, but stomach to the wall is essential for building 1) a good body line and 2) strong traps.

However, there is no need to walk in closer than you are comfortable with, I have my beginners at near to a 45% angle from the wall, and it's still an effective exercise.

Cole Dano said:

Trust me, I learned this the hard way, if you only go back to the wall you will almost certainly have defects in your HS.

There is a time and place for back to the wall, but stomach to the wall is essential for building 1) a good body line and 2) strong traps.

However, there is no need to walk in closer than you are comfortable with, I have my beginners at near to a 45% angle from the wall, and it's still an effective exercise.

I appreciate your reply, I will take your word and do my headstand pushups with stomach to wall and see how it goes. Thanks

CalisthenicGod said:

my floor is hard wood so I cannot afford to roll on that without messing up my spine and I don't have any soft mats of any sort, and I really do not want to put my clean blanket I use to sleep on the dirty floor.

Again thanks for the input folks

Wood only? Haha, I practice on pavement.

CalisthenicGod said:

I appreciate your reply, I will take your word and do my headstand pushups with stomach to wall and see how it goes. Thanks

If you're really worried then pillows, couch cushions, blankets, or anything else soft can be placed in front of you in case you need to roll out/fall out.

Hi,

Doing headstand pushups with stomach to the wall are definitely harder and force you to keep better form. I have also found my balance in freestanding improving by doing stomach to wall headstand pushups. The problem I have found is once you are ready to elevate the hands to get a deeper range of motion what do you do? I have tried walking the hands closer to the wall and then picking up one hand to put it on a parallette and then picking up the other hand and putting it on a parrallette. Suffice to say having the balance and stregnth to do this wasn't the easiest and it didn't go so well. What's the solution to this other than reverting back to back to wall handstand pushups? Do you do back to wall handstand pushups and then just do stomach to wall handstands for body line work?

Phil

When I was practicing HSPU (with hands on a box) facing the wall, I used to get there by doing a standing pike, lifting a leg in split, and lifting my other leg by sliding it on the wall. An other options for less flexible fellows could be to cartwheel up.

Hello gentlemen, one question:

I cannot do a freestanding handstand yet, so I need a wall for assistance. My workout calls for Handstand Pushups, and I am wondering if they should be done "stomach to wall" or "back to wall". I find if my hands are too close to the wall, the wall gets in the way of my elbows during headstand pushups when I am doing it the "stomach to wall" way. Can anyone please help me clarify this?

CalisthenicGod said:

Hello gentlemen, one question:

I cannot do a freestanding handstand yet, so I need a wall for assistance. My workout calls for Handstand Pushups, and I am wondering if they should be done "stomach to wall" or "back to wall". I find if my hands are too close to the wall, the wall gets in the way of my elbows during headstand pushups when I am doing it the "stomach to wall" way. Can anyone please help me clarify this?

To have a hollow body, I prefer "stomach to wall" HS.

http://www.drillsandskills.com/article/19

I always find it ridiculous when someone puts up an excuse for not doing stomach to wall handstands. They "can't roll out or get out of it safely". Or "have trouble getting into a stomach to wall hs". This is just utter nonsense. I don't know if some people really are that weak but I never had any trouble getting into both kinds of hs, ever, because there really shouldn't be.

I've even always been able to do at least 2 hespu against the wall since I was like 15, way before I did any kind of training at all. But some people, "normal" ones who aren't fat and are even athletic, have problems getting into one. I don't get it.

And for the "I can't afford to fall while in a stw hs", well that's nonsense too because unless you're going to the utter limit or youre moving too fast you shouldn't have any problems.

Ragnarok said:

I always find it ridiculous when someone puts up an excuse for not doing stomach to wall handstands. They "can't roll out or get out of it safely". Or "have trouble getting into a stomach to wall hs". This is just utter nonsense. I don't know if some people really are that weak but I never had any trouble getting into both kinds of hs, ever, because there really shouldn't be.

I've even always been able to do at least 2 hespu against the wall since I was like 15, way before I did any kind of training at all. But some people, "normal" ones who aren't fat and are even athletic, have problems getting into one. I don't get it.

And for the "I can't afford to fall while in a stw hs", well that's nonsense too because unless you're going to the utter limit or youre moving too fast you shouldn't have any problems.

Hummm...... congrats on not having any problems to do all sorts of HS; maybe one day you'll know that not everyone has your ability!

At this moment, I do not do HS because I am scared my shoulders will collapse... I'll get there, but not at this moment! 8)

FredInChina said:

Hummm...... congrats on not having any problems to do all sorts of HS; maybe one day you'll know that not everyone has your ability!

At this moment, I do not do HS because I am scared my shoulders will collapse... I'll get there, but not at this moment! 8)

I didn't say i could do all sorts of HS, i said only the basic HeSPU back to wall and stomach to wall and both kinds of HS holds. Oh and actually the one where you go lower than the floor with push-up bars, i was always able to do 1 of those too.

And why are you scared your shoulders will collapse? Do you have some kind of injury?

Oh and i forgot to include that i also have this kind of like thing where my left shoulder sort of dislocates or something if i move it in a certain way since i fell and fractured my left wrist when i was 10 or 11 and this hasn't stopped me from doing anything either.

Don't worry about being scared of your shoulders collapsing. Just progress slowly, and you'll get there. One of my student who I started to train about a month ago was so scared of handstands that she started crying when I asked her to do a handstand facing the wall. She was also very weak. I was like: "WTH is she crying? I just asked, she's not forced to do it and just have to tell me if something's wrong!" So I took her on the side, and she told me she was scared as hell, that her last teacher just tried to force her to do handstands or something like that and that she didn't learn the basics. So I took my time to teach her the basics, starting with front rolls, back rolls, cartwheels, bridges, hollow and arch positions. Then I made her scale the wall up and down (facing the wall) several times each training, trying to get progressively closer to it, and do cartwheels of the wall so she get used to fall off the wall correctly. On the side, I made her do handstands back to the wall because she wasn't scared of it, to build up better endurance. Eventually, she could take a few steps on her hands with her feet against the wall, which enabled her to get closer to the wall while facing it, and now she isn't scared anymore.

There's all types of people out there, and they all learn differently. Sooner or later, we all come across obstacles we have to overcome, certain people sooner than others, but we can all learn. It's just a matter of time.

Vagabond, that's an awesome story!

This gets mentioned at every seminar I've been to, but when it comes to the wall handstands the #1 thing you need to be able to do is get out of the handstand safely! No sense in getting up on the wall if you get hurt coming down. At first just learning your basic forward roll progressions and a half-decent cartwheel is enough to get you to where you can safely come down from the wall.

I will say that when one is worried about shoulders collapsing due to lack of strength and/or stability it is a very good idea to do the following: Standing dumbbell lateral raises, Turkish get ups, and Arnold-style shoulder presses with a hollow body. The standing dumbbell lateral raises should be done with a hollow body too. This will help you train your deltoids so that they are strong and can help keep your shoulders stable so you feel safe.

There are situations like this where the best solution is a set of dumbbells.

@ Ragnarok: You have a blind spot my friend... it is okay, you must be very young and this is great! You'll be amazed once you'll have fallen 7 times and gotten back up 8, you'll be able to see things that you don't now.

Thanks for the great post & advice Vagabond & Joshua N., always useful

I'll get there, my shoulders are improving daily... I've been very careful to avoid most overhead movements to allow for both subscapularis tendons to heal (over a year now), so it is no surprise that I am weak in this ROM, but time is coming soon to nimble at that; patience takes time, & that too shall pass.

There's probably quite a few exercises you can do with no material for training your scapula in weird ranges of motion. Per example, lean on your back, arms straigth up over your head (against the ground). Lift your legs straight so your feet are in the air just a bit lower than your hips (like the top part of a lying leg raise. Then, with the back of your hands, push against the ground to lift your shoulders off of it. It is important to note that this can only be done with enough shoulder flexibility. Arching the back is allowed. If you can do it easily, bring your legs closer to your face, to add more weight on your shoulders. If it's too hard, lower your legs to have more counter-balance. This kind of exercise against the ground can be done with many different angles and shoulder angles for those who don't have dumbbells. I know I don't.

Fred, here is another little story that shows you are not the only one. I am sure that when I was about 15, I could do a HS against the wall and probably do a HeSPU. I never practiced however, and by the time I was 68 the strength definitely had gone. As I found out when I decided that, maybe, it was not too late to learn to do a 30 second free HS. That was three years ago and in the beginning when I tried a HS against the wall, my shoulders and arms collapsed: face plant. Fortunately, I did not give up but just kept trying. First with a rubber band around my shoulders to give me some support (and a pillow to cushion the face plant). Then, a couple of seconds back to wall, and so on. After about 6 months I did manage a 37 seconds free HS with the worst possible form (as measured by the GB forum standards, but that was not my point then). That was more than two years ago. Since that time, I have practiced my free HS off and on. I still have a hard time kicking into a free HS and then hold my balance, but I have made good progress in shoulder flexibility, strength and endurance. Lately, once or twice a week I do a session of 10 to 15 HS of between 45 to 60 seconds each to get the 10 to 15 minutes standing on your hands that coach Summers advices as a worthwhile training goal. So, my advice to you is, just keep at it. If I can do it, you can too. It can be a lot of fun to just keep trying.

Thank you vagabond, I am working on my shoulder flexibility and opening... this exercise you are suggesting is maybe in my distant future :shock:

Luckily, I have kettle bells and bands and pink dumbbells too.

It will come, but it'll take the time it needs to take not to upset my shoulders

It took me 5 months and 2 weeks after arthroscopy to be able to do one full ROM perfect form push up; probably 6 more months to do a pull up (not there yet); if I can hold a wall handstand and be able to roll out of it by September, I'll be happy... if not, it'll be Oct, or Nov. & I'll be happy too...

Thanks for sharing your experience Fritz