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mattdaly

bodybuilders v gymnasts

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Joshua Naterman
On my phone so brief here but let's just say Kraemers opinion is not positive. Many flaws in design execution and analysis. Also got to discuss a 10 year study done on female gymnasts at Penn. State when he was there.

Interesting. All I can say is excellent results on my side with my implementation, but a) I'm doing pretty hard stuff and not doing more than 50-60s of TUT before upping the weight to find the new 25-30s of TUT level, and b) nothing is as isolationist as the leg extensions they used.

Just went from 90 lb assisted OAC to 80 lb, and I have gone from 55s of TUT to around 35 per arm (right arm still weaker, but improving).

Am posting a large-ish video update tonight in my log. Will be showing a number of exercises that are non-standard, most inspired by Gregor's log and some others, along with hollow dips.

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Nic Branson

Your implementation is different then the study. More well thought out to progression and you don't neglect the heavy side constantly.

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Joshua Naterman

This is true. I also have to say that 30% of 1RM is going to be able to be lifted for more than 47 seconds straight, or whatever the TUT they named was. It was somewhere around that.

I've played around with that for bench press a week ago, based on my estimated max of 275 or so right now. I used about 95 lbs so slightly higher than 30% and could still go for almost 2 minutes straight. That's a movement I haven't trained in YEARS and I don't do much pressing these days, so to make me believe that more endurance-oriented muscles like the quads are going to fatigue at a similar load in less than 60 seconds is... well... you're going to need an awful lot of hardcore hallucinogens to pull that one over on me.

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Nic Branson

His lab is pretty awesome too it is sad his research seems more towards getting attention. Though it did produce thought and cause something useful to be found so :).

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Amir Giles

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Matthew Proulx

That is pretty impressive seen it long ago, came across this dude yesterday on youtube, not a gymnast but does a lot of acrobatic stuff, pretty impressive for a big dude

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Michaël Van den Berg

Juji is a tricker who turned bodybuilder, not the other way around. But yes, it's nice to see he's still able to move. His rings stuff is not very good though - he's obviously strong but there's not a locked elbow in sight.

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Michaël Van den Berg

I just realized that his rings stuff is not in the video posted upthread. This is the one:

 

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Esa Virtanen

Wow this thread is so one sided on that gymnastics is the best training there is for everything. People have different goals, not everyone wants to do a planche or a press to handstand. I myself train for armwrestling, but I do both gymnastics and bb on the side. Gymnastics because I want to get a back, front and sidelever and bb because it is good pre- and rehab. 

 

And I don't think bodybuilding ends at ronnie coleman. A lot of people know they will never look like him, neither do they want to, but they want to look better. If that's just getting bigger biceps or bigger legs, bodybuilding might be quite beneficial to increase mass in those areas. 

 

I just want to say I love gymnastics stuff as much as every other guy/girl on this forum but you have to be more open-minded.

Most globogyms are just mixtures of people who only know what they read in the latest Muscle&Fitness. I did come across a few at Berkeley that knew and were doing StartingStrength. There was 1 aspiring PowerLifter who was using the Conjugate System.

But the majority of people don't know WTF to do. Sometimes there are some intro classes that go over the basics or machines. It's really free for all. Noobs watch other people do and it just perpetuates.

 

I'm quite sure not every calisthenics/gymnastics practitioner knows what they are doing either, then we wouldn't need Foundation and we wouldn't have a full forum of people asking why this or that hurts. 

I haven't seen Jeff post in quite a bit of time so I'll try to pretend to say something he would.

It all gets down to...

Do you want to wear a bikini and spray tan and flex on a stage with other men for a crowd or...

Do you want to wear a leotard and do cool stuff.

Bikinis or leotards rides up your butt just the same. Both show your junk to some degree as do tight athletic pants. Girls wear both for dancing and modeling in.

At least the aerobic competitions do the flexing and dance around and do some floor stuff. Less foo-foo than Men's rhythmic dancing. Right there with Men's Ice Skating.

 

Since this is a gymnastics forum everyone's gonna select this option. Tumbling down a tumble track/exercise floor and swinging around on bars/rings is more exciting and fun than standing on stage flexing those bloody muscles pretending to be Arnold Schwarzenegger.

 

As I said before, I think bodybuilding is more than just posing (competing). Not everyone on this forum competes either, but they are still doing gymnastics. 

I don't like bodybulding/weightlifting anymore for a number of reasons:

(1) Most people do it for one thing: hypertrophy. Have big muscles. Thats it. What are you gonna do with all them big muscles? Big muscles will serve as a detriment to us gymnasts. Next time you do a back somersault or a handspring its gonna be harder cuz you're heavier due to large, dense and cumbersome muscles.

Here, this'll deter you from weight lifting: {C}http://www.livestrong.com/article/54566 ... t-weights/{C}

(2) Its a pain in the arse to maintain bodybuilding outside the gym: eat eight times a day or something plus some protein shake to go with it. Jesus christ! I ain't doing that! I eat about three times a day on average. Its just unnatural to eat that many times, for the purpose of getting big muscles. Just eat when feel fucking hungry. I doubt gymnasts eat like a mother to go along with their conditioning programme - unless I'm wrong.

(3) Too overrated. Why is it so damn popular? Pisses me off. Why are the majority of men obsessed with being big?! Be big for what?

(4) Steroids. Whats with that? Why are body building douchebags using it (obviously not all of them do)? I hope its not for allowing them to take in more protein, hypertrophy and stuff more than their bodies allow it. Do gymnasts touch that stuff? Do you see Gabrielle Douglas or Alexandra Raisman using steroids? I don't need steroids, I'm too good to using it.

(5) Weight lifting doesn't have any carryovers strength or functional strength. Calithenics training pwns. Can Arnold Schwarzenegger do a press handstand followed by a pirouette? I doubt it, he'll fall on the floor when he tries it and scream, "Aaaargh! I fell over and hurt! Get to tha chopper! Aaaargh! You son of a bitch! Arrrgh!"

We gymnasts want strong bodies, NOT bigger bodies. To help to support our own bodyweight during moves such as handstands.
 

Just wow. 

 

1: That's their goal, bigger muscle. They never said if it was good or bad or a somersault. 

2: A lot of elite athletes have a nutritionist to work on their eating habits. An amateur/random bb at the gym probably won't put that much effort in their diet as the pros do, neither do I think you eat like Yuri or someone else.

3: Why is anything popular? It's an easy way to gain muscle. Almost everyone want to be bigger, but I can guarantee that like 0.01% of the men in the world would want to look like Coleman. I don't have any statistics of course but it is just too big for most people. People want to look like they work out atleast.

4: All sports have problems with doping, it's not exclusive to bodybuilding.

5: There is a reason doctors/researchers advocates physical activity of different kinds, because it helps us in daily life and usually prevents against neck/back/shoulder problems. And please show me a ring gymnast who doesn't have a "big" body for their size. 

 

I suspect the mentality of the people drawn to bodybuilding and those drawn to gymnastics are completely different.
I'm not saying that we are the chimps and bodybuilders are the gorillas ... oops I said it.

Anyway the key thing is what girls think, and frankly they would think either group is strong.
Chances are she would be impressed by a guy pressing a 100 pound dumbell overhead or a single arm handstand equally.
Unfortunately lots of girls like the tattoed bad boy type, and a bodybuilder is more often that type
than a gymnast. On the other hand gymnasts can carry a multi-syllabic conversation :mrgreen:

Well as you suspect the post is somewhat in jest.
If there is a grain of truth to it, it is only in the eye of the beholder.

This also, are you saying people who do bb are idiots? Sounds to me that way. I didn't know there was a correlation between low IQ-bodybuilding and high IQ-gymnastics. Do we become smarter/more educated by training gymnastics or do smart/educated people train gymnastics? I know plenty of University grads who do bodybuilding, must be a scam of some kind.

 

TLDR: Be more open-minded about things, you can learn from other sports too. Sorry for the drawn out post but as someone posted in the beginning of this thread, these discussion usually just end up as a e-peen contest. Maybe we should discuss what could be usable from other sports and how gymnastics could be good for other sports?

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Matthew Proulx

Juji is a tricker who turned bodybuilder, not the other way around. But yes, it's nice to see he's still able to move. His rings stuff is not very good though - he's obviously strong but there's not a locked elbow in sight.

Ya he really sucks on the rings, according to him he only deadlifts and the rest of his workout is calisthenics, but I am guessing he is on juice either way because he used to be pretty thin.

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ForzaCavaliere

Wow this thread is so one sided on that gymnastics is the best training there is for everything. 

 

Please look at the URL of the website, and consider what kind of people would frequent these pages. 

 

Nobody said that gymnastics is the "best training there is for everything". But gymnastics being based on mastering oneself physically makes it all around more complete than other forms of strength training. Even Lao Tzu - the great philosopher - said "Mastering others is strength. Mastering oneself is true power." I like to compare it to weightlifting where you master an external object ("mastering others"), while gymnastics is "mastering oneself".

 

As for this whole bodybuilder vs gymnast premise, I don't quite understand as one is focused on looking good while the other is on developing functional strength. Though I find it humorous that in most cases a gymnast's body exceeds a bodybuilder's on the aesthetic plane as well. :)

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Seabird

Heres a good summation of the differences:

 

http://www.startbodyweight.com/2014/04/weights-vs-bodyweight-exercises.html

 

Weightlifting:
-          Progressive overload is achieved through incrementally adding small loads to exercises. Progressions are very smooth, and the basic mechanics of the exercises remain the same.
-          Big compound movements are often closed kinetic chain exercises (which are considered safer), but isolation exercises (and also a few compound lifts) fall under the open kinetic chain category, which somewhat increases the amount of shearing forces placed on the joints
-          CNS (Central Nervous System) gains are experienced very quickly at first due to the consistent mechanics of the exercises performed and their limited number (beginner programs such as Stronglifts for instance consist of only 5 basic lifts). As you get better, it becomes increasingly hard to maximize your CNS gains (something which most beginner programs completely ignore). Note however that whilst these movements may be simple to learn, their subtleties are hard to master.
-          The greater variety of isolation exercises means you have more control over the way your body looks and develops than with bodyweight exercises. These isolation exercises are seldom used in beginner programs however.
 
Bodyweight training:
-          Progressive overload is achieved through exercise variations, making use of leverage and mechanical disadvantage. Progressions are perhaps not as smooth as in weightlifting, but arguably the constant changes from one exercise variation to the next target muscles from different angles.
-          Most exercises are closed kinetic chain exercises and these are generally considered safer and more functional. It is worth noting however that some advanced movements such as back levers and one arm chins place a lot of stress on tendons, and connective tissue of the joints involved.
-          CNS gains reoccur frequently: the constantly changing nature of exercise progressions means that each variation has slightly different mechanics than the previous one (basic programs consist of often well over 50 different variations of 6 or 7 basic exercises). These constant changes place far greater demands on coordination, proprioception, balance and flexibility than weightlifting does. Rapid CNS gains therefore happen with each new variation, arguably resulting in increased strength and muscle mass.
-          Most exercises are compound exercises, which are widely considered to favour muscle growth far quicker than isolation exercises
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Seabird

 

As for this whole bodybuilder vs gymnast premise, I don't quite understand as one is focused on looking good while the other is on developing functional strength. Though I find it humorous that in most cases a gymnast's body exceeds a bodybuilder's on the aesthetic plane as well. :)

 

Check out all this unfunctional muscle -

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ForzaCavaliere

No, that's completely irrelevant to what I posted sorry! 

 

I was discussing bodybuilding vs gymnastics, not weightlifting vs calisthenics

 

In competitive bodybuilding, the aim is to get the best looking body. You are not judged on feats of strength.

In competitive gymnastics, the aim is to master the strength output of the body in a controlled manner during bodyweight feats. You are not judged on how good your body looks.

 

Weightlifting or calisthenics are both a means to an ends, different methods of training, regardless of what the aim is. 

 

As for the video you posted, doing a planche has nothing to do with bodybuilding (where the focus is to develop the best looking body and in often cases it is simply to gain as much muscle mass as possible), unless he used it to gain muscle (which I doubt he did), and hence does not really contribute to the discussion (in my eyes). 

 

I think you misunderstood me, man.

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IOANNIS BLANAS

We are comparing very different things here.

 

You can compare an elite gymnast with an average bodybuilder (which they will look pretty similar as far as musculature and bf% goes)

 

Yes the bber doesn't have the same functionality but he doesn't train 6 hours a day since he was 5 years old...

 

BBing is MUCH more efficient (as far as looks go)

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Alexander Egebak

We are comparing very different things here.

 

You can compare an elite gymnast with an average bodybuilder (which they will look pretty similar as far as musculature and bf% goes)

 

Yes the bber doesn't have the same functionality but he doesn't train 6 hours a day since he was 5 years old...

 

BBing is MUCH more efficient (as far as looks go)

Gymnasts are not strength training 6 hours a day

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IOANNIS BLANAS

>Gymnasts are not strength training 6 hours a day

I know of very few competitive athletes that train less that 4 hours per day 6 days a week. Practically no bodybuilder does that besides elite ones

Plus gymnasts might not strenght train 6 hours a day but the technical aspects of their sport are quite strength demanding.

There is no point arguing that bodybuilding type of training is much more efficient if looks is wgat you want

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Jan Reipert

He is still right. As far as building muscle in an efficient way is concerned, bodybuilding is far superior. You cant really argue about that.

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Alexander Egebak

He is still right. As far as building muscle in an efficient way is concerned, bodybuilding is far superior. You cant really argue about that.

I am not. I want to clear up the misconception.

 

By the way, did you just like your own post?

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Jan Reipert

Im logged in on my phone and cant see that. If i did it was definitely not on purpose.

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Kate Abernethy

Yes it's very easy to do by mistake (like posts) on mobiles.

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