Is this how it's supposed to be

Ok so Im doing 5x5 with certain FBE's i've picked. I read that when you train in the 1-5 or 3-6 rep range or what have you, you are training for strength so you should rest minimum 3-5min between sets. So i do 4 exercises (2 pull 2 push) 5x5 and i rest exactly 3min between each set so 48 minutes are just resting. Add in what each set takes, going from one exercise to the other (it takes usually 1-3 min when i finish 1 exercise to start the other) and the whole workout takes from 1:10:00 to 1:25:00. Maybe an hour and 10-15 if i don't waste any time.

So is this correct? An hour and 10-25min to complete 4 exercises 5x5?

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

One to one and a half hours seems reasonable. Mine are like that.

Rik de Kort said:

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

Yes. Life has many choices and trade offs. A bit of saved time, and slightly increased conditioning, for slightly less efficient strength gains

phrak said:

Rik de Kort said:

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

Yes. Life has many choices and trade offs. A bit of saved time, and slightly increased conditioning, for slightly less efficient strength gains

Not always the case. Their are situation where alternating with rest breaks can produce very good strength gains. It's just a tool in the box that gets used in certain conditions. Just need to know what to use it with and when. Be wary of blanket statements.

Something that's worked very well for me strength and time wise is pairing two exercises for opposing muscle groups and resting 120 seconds between them. That way you rest about 4 minutes before coming back to the same plane but only 2 minutes for the opposite plane. Saves time and you get plenty of rest for strength training

See this for a detailed explanation:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tab ... rvals.aspx

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

I tried this but it didn't work out that well. Time-wise yes it was better but the performance dropped. Well maybe i'm still a novice and it works better when you're advanced?

Rik de Kort said:

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

One to one and a half hours seems reasonable. Mine are like that.

Yeah.

Bobby B said:

Something that's worked very well for me strength and time wise is pairing two exercises for opposing muscle groups and resting 120 seconds between them. That way you rest about 4 minutes before coming back to the same plane but only 2 minutes for the opposite plane. Saves time and you get plenty of rest for strength training

See this for a detailed explanation:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tab ... rvals.aspx

This is almost exactly what i did when i tried out supersetting. The only difference is that i didn't do it from the start (about halfway in) and i rested 90s between each set. I'll give it another try because it sounds good.

By the way is pairing a pull and a push enough for them to be opposing muscle groups? (Don't know if that was spelled correctly).

Sounds like doing 4 FBE's in one workout might be a bit much for you at this time. It was for me. Try 2 per workout and then add more as you get stronger. I saw solid progress with this:

Mon - pushups / rows

Tue - curls / dips

Thu - SLS / hamstring

Fri - pullups / HeSPU

Sat - ring strength / muscle up work

Don't forget the pre req's. Along with prehab and the above you'll find yourself busy for about 90 minutes

Rik de Kort said:

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

One to one and a half hours seems reasonable. Mine are like that.

How would this reduce the quality of the workout if your working completely different muscle groups? CNS?

B1214N said:

Rik de Kort said:

phrak said:

You can superset exercises to save time. For instance, do a set of pushups, then a set of rows, then rest a little bit, and back to pushups, etc.

...but that will reduce the quality of the workout a bit.

One to one and a half hours seems reasonable. Mine are like that.

How would this reduce the quality of the workout if your working completely different muscle groups? CNS?

At least for me, when I work on strength (and I don't rest as much as suggested) my general energy and strength capacity goes down as I work out. The easiest way to notice this is to switch around the order of workouts. There will be a very noticeable difference in number of reps / difficulty if an exercise is at the beginning of my workout and at the end of my workout.

The same situation is more apparent when pairing and doing supersets. My body gets tired during the workout and the number of reps or difficulty in completing goals becomes more difficult.

What I mean is that if I do 5x5 pullups followed by 5x5 HSPU's, 5x5 dips and 4x8 squats and this is my regular routine. If I switch up the routine to have the dips first, the set will feel a lot easier, but the pullups I did fine as 5x5 at the beginning will feel very difficult as the last exercise. This is even more apparent in supersets. by the middle of the first superset I will have roughly the same fatigue as at the end of my first set, but I will still have half the first set's exercises to do (as well as half the second set) so the second half will feel much more difficult and I will feel fatigued when compared to straight sets.

In the end I do not think it makes a difference, since work done will be the same (if rest times and sets are the same), however you will have the feeling you are weaker or more tired than when doing straight sets (at least for me it is).

Mentally, I like alternating between the two. I still cannot see myself waiting five minutes between sets. Just does not compute for me, plus I do not have the time. So the maximum I wait is about 2 minutes, for 3-4 rep exercises, or 60 seconds for 5-8 rep exercises.

When I'm in the gym 90 minutes to 120 minutes, I end up doing 5 FSP's 4 FBE's and a core workout. Maybe this is too much I do not know, but there are just SO MANY exercises that I want to do, that I cannot for the life of me figure out how to fit everything in there if I did anything less.

At least for me, when I work on strength (and I don't rest as much as suggested) my general energy and strength capacity goes down as I work out. The easiest way to notice this is to switch around the order of workouts. There will be a very noticeable difference in number of reps / difficulty if an exercise is at the beginning of my workout and at the end of my workout.

The same situation is more apparent when pairing and doing supersets. My body gets tired during the workout and the number of reps or difficulty in completing goals becomes more difficult.

What I mean is that if I do 5x5 pullups followed by 5x5 HSPU's, 5x5 dips and 4x8 squats and this is my regular routine. If I switch up the routine to have the dips first, the set will feel a lot easier, but the pullups I did fine as 5x5 at the beginning will feel very difficult as the last exercise. This is even more apparent in supersets. by the middle of the first superset I will have roughly the same fatigue as at the end of my first set, but I will still have half the first set's exercises to do (as well as half the second set) so the second half will feel much more difficult and I will feel fatigued when compared to straight sets.

In the end I do not think it makes a difference, since work done will be the same (if rest times and sets are the same), however you will have the feeling you are weaker or more tired than when doing straight sets (at least for me it is).

Mentally, I like alternating between the two. I still cannot see myself waiting five minutes between sets. Just does not compute for me, plus I do not have the time. So the maximum I wait is about 2 minutes, for 3-4 rep exercises, or 60 seconds for 5-8 rep exercises.

When I'm in the gym 90 minutes to 120 minutes, I end up doing 5 FSP's 4 FBE's and a core workout. Maybe this is too much I do not know, but there are just SO MANY exercises that I want to do, that I cannot for the life of me figure out how to fit everything in there if I did anything less.

I'm sure it might be something else, but the only reason I can think of that is causing that is CNS fatigue. Doing sets to failure can be very fatiguing to the CNS.

Longer rest times should be used in straight sets for max strength work, but since your using supersets you can reduce it and because you don't have that much time.

kskh2o said:

When I'm in the gym 90 minutes to 120 minutes, I end up doing 5 FSP's 4 FBE's and a core workout.

There's your problem. Your FBE's should be your core workout.

Bobby B said:

Sounds like doing 4 FBE's in one workout might be a bit much for you at this time. It was for me. Try 2 per workout and then add more as you get stronger.

I tried what the article you gave me said and it was fantastic. It worked very well and i finished in 53 min even though i lost a bit of time on the last 2 exercises.

Bobby B said:

I saw solid progress with this:

Mon - pushups / rows

Tue - curls / dips

Thu - SLS / hamstring

Fri - pullups / HeSPU

Sat - ring strength / muscle up work

I thought about doing a different type of push/pull each day like that but what stopped me was that I would be doing each exercise only once a week, for example i would be doing pullups or dips once a week. Right now with what i have i do each exercise about twice a week. They said here in another thread i made 2x a week is better than 1x.

Well actually right now im doing all the FBE's i want to do anyways, im doing 8. Maybe later on when im more advanced ill add more exercises and assign something for each day like you have it there.

Bobby B said:

Don't forget the pre req's. Along with prehab and the above you'll find yourself busy for about 90 minutes

Yeah im doing all that too.

kskh2o said:

At least for me, when I work on strength (and I don't rest as much as suggested) my general energy and strength capacity goes down as I work out. The easiest way to notice this is to switch around the order of workouts. There will be a very noticeable difference in number of reps / difficulty if an exercise is at the beginning of my workout and at the end of my workout.

The same situation is more apparent when pairing and doing supersets. My body gets tired during the workout and the number of reps or difficulty in completing goals becomes more difficult.

What I mean is that if I do 5x5 pullups followed by 5x5 HSPU's, 5x5 dips and 4x8 squats and this is my regular routine. If I switch up the routine to have the dips first, the set will feel a lot easier, but the pullups I did fine as 5x5 at the beginning will feel very difficult as the last exercise. This is even more apparent in supersets. by the middle of the first superset I will have roughly the same fatigue as at the end of my first set, but I will still have half the first set's exercises to do (as well as half the second set) so the second half will feel much more difficult and I will feel fatigued when compared to straight sets.

In the end I do not think it makes a difference, since work done will be the same (if rest times and sets are the same), however you will have the feeling you are weaker or more tired than when doing straight sets (at least for me it is).

Mentally, I like alternating between the two. I still cannot see myself waiting five minutes between sets. Just does not compute for me, plus I do not have the time. So the maximum I wait is about 2 minutes, for 3-4 rep exercises, or 60 seconds for 5-8 rep exercises.

When I'm in the gym 90 minutes to 120 minutes, I end up doing 5 FSP's 4 FBE's and a core workout. Maybe this is too much I do not know, but there are just SO MANY exercises that I want to do, that I cannot for the life of me figure out how to fit everything in there if I did anything less.

With what i tried i actually did more reps this time (last time i did everything straight sets) and it felt better.

The most demanding exercises should be done first, i read.

kskh2o said:

At least for me, when I work on strength (and I don't rest as much as suggested) my general energy and strength capacity goes down as I work out. The easiest way to notice this is to switch around the order of workouts. There will be a very noticeable difference in number of reps / difficulty if an exercise is at the beginning of my workout and at the end of my workout.

The same situation is more apparent when pairing and doing supersets. My body gets tired during the workout and the number of reps or difficulty in completing goals becomes more difficult.

What I mean is that if I do 5x5 pullups followed by 5x5 HSPU's, 5x5 dips and 4x8 squats and this is my regular routine. If I switch up the routine to have the dips first, the set will feel a lot easier, but the pullups I did fine as 5x5 at the beginning will feel very difficult as the last exercise. This is even more apparent in supersets. by the middle of the first superset I will have roughly the same fatigue as at the end of my first set, but I will still have half the first set's exercises to do (as well as half the second set) so the second half will feel much more difficult and I will feel fatigued when compared to straight sets.

In the end I do not think it makes a difference, since work done will be the same (if rest times and sets are the same), however you will have the feeling you are weaker or more tired than when doing straight sets (at least for me it is).

Well, you can always do 2 exercises first, and then do the other 2 later. Like, do 2, have food, rest, or whatever, then when it goes down do the other 2. I've done this and it's great. It's better mentally too because I sometimes just get bored doing exercise for an hour-hour 15. I will always feel stronger if I do the other 2 later also since i will be fresh, and i mean at least an hour later sometimes more.

kskh2o said:

Mentally, I like alternating between the two. I still cannot see myself waiting five minutes between sets. Just does not compute for me, plus I do not have the time. So the maximum I wait is about 2 minutes, for 3-4 rep exercises, or 60 seconds for 5-8 rep exercises.

That seems oddly low rest for low reps. I rest at least 3min between sets and i hear you will need more rest as the exercises keep getting more intense.

Maybe your exercises are not intense right now. What exact exercises are you doing? How much weight do you have on?

Ragnarok said:

kskh2o said:

Mentally, I like alternating between the two. I still cannot see myself waiting five minutes between sets. Just does not compute for me, plus I do not have the time. So the maximum I wait is about 2 minutes, for 3-4 rep exercises, or 60 seconds for 5-8 rep exercises.

That seems oddly low rest for low reps. I rest at least 3min between sets and i hear you will need more rest as the exercises keep getting more intense.

Maybe your exercises are not intense right now. What exact exercises are you doing? How much weight do you have on?

He's doing a superset. So you only need about half the rest in between exercises. If you have, for instance, front lever pullups and planche pushups and you would take 4 minutes rest if you do them straight:

FL pullups, 4 min rest, FL pullups, 4 min rest, FL pullups, 4 min rest, PL pushups, 4 min rest, etc.

You can superset them, so while you're resting from FL, you can work on PL a bit:

FL pullups, 2 min rest, PL pushups, 2 min rest, FL pullups, 2 min rest, etc.

As you can see, you still get 4 minutes rest in between FL pullups. Sort of, at least. It's supposed to work pretty well. Not also that the rest time between sets is cut in half!

Rik de Kort said:

He's doing a superset. So you only need about half the rest in between exercises. If you have, for instance, front lever pullups and planche pushups and you would take 4 minutes rest if you do them straight:

FL pullups, 4 min rest, FL pullups, 4 min rest, FL pullups, 4 min rest, PL pushups, 4 min rest, etc.

You can superset them, so while you're resting from FL, you can work on PL a bit:

FL pullups, 2 min rest, PL pushups, 2 min rest, FL pullups, 2 min rest, etc.

As you can see, you still get 4 minutes rest in between FL pullups. Sort of, at least. It's supposed to work pretty well. Not also that the rest time between sets is cut in half!

He said he alternates between the two, not that he does supersets exclusively.

Yeah I tried that, pull, rest 2 min, push, rest 2 min, pull, so on and so forth.

The duration is indeed a lot lower but i didn't like it because at the time i tried it i was doing weighted pushups with some other weighted pull exercise and since i don't have that many plates i had to use the same plates for both exercises and i had to be carrying them around and the pushups were done with a backpack and putting that damn thing on was a hassle and it took quite a bit of time, so i found i barely had time to finish the exercise, remove the weights, carry them inside/outside my house (the pull exercises i do them outside my house since i can't put the parallel bars inside and the push exercises i have to do them inside the house because the place where i have the bars is dirty for push exercises) and then set up the weights again for the other exercise. It was a pain in the ass.

For the un-weighted exercises it worked well i think, since i didn't have to be running around with weights and it took no time to set up. Now i changed from weighted pushups to PPP so ill give it another try.

Guys, let's get one thing straight.

If you are doing "strength work" and you aren't taking 3-5 minutes of rest, you aren't doing strength work. You're doing work capacity work. That's one of the hallmarks of an accumulation cycle.

If your goal for a given workout is specifically to increase strength, you don't need more than 3 sets and each set needs to be lasting around 10-20s. For 5 reps, that's 2s down and 2s up at an evenly split tempo with no momentum. I think you will all find that this is much, much more difficult than it sounds when you force perfect form.

You will also find that you build a surprising amount of both muscle and strength this way if it is combined with the right nutrition at the right time.

Most of the reason that people aren't getting what they want out of their gym time is that they don't know how to build their workout around what they want. The nutrition doesn't actually change all that much (though that is usually screwed up as well and is also a large factor).

You want strength? You need to operate within the confines of your creatine phosphate system. You want strength-endurance? You need to operate within the confines of your anaerobic glycolysis system. That's it. Seriously.

You want repeat sprint performance without sacrificing power? You need 1-2m exertion periods of 100% VO2Max effort with 10 minutes of rest, repeated 5-6 times.

Know what enzymes and energy substrates your goals depend on, know how to train for that adaptation, and then train that way. If you don't know, learn!

Learn....I've heard that before. Now only if I could convince others of its worth in an age where people only want the answer and not the understanding that come with knowing why the answer is what it is.

The question is more important then the answer...

Nic Branson said:

Learn....I've heard that before. Now only if I could convince others of its worth in an age where people only want the answer and not the understanding that come with knowing why the answer is what it is.

The question is more important then the answer...

Personally, I think it's the reason for the specific answer to the question that's most important. Otherwise, how can you figure out the answers to other questions you have? Pretty much everything can be axiomatized in one way or another, brought down to a few simple rules that most, if not all, answers follow from.

It's a shame every system cannot prove its own consistency... :roll:

Exactly what I am getting at. You have to ask the right question and understand why you're asking it...

Critical thinking skills..

Joshua Naterman said:

Guys, let's get one thing straight.

If you are doing "strength work" and you aren't taking 3-5 minutes of rest, you aren't doing strength work. You're doing work capacity work. That's one of the hallmarks of an accumulation cycle.

So doing supersets like in the poliquin article (exercise 1, 2min rest, exercise 2, 2 min rest, exercise 1, 2 min rest, repeat) is not strength work?

Joshua Naterman said:

If your goal for a given workout is specifically to increase strength, you don't need more than 3 sets and each set needs to be lasting around 10-20s. For 5 reps, that's 2s down and 2s up at an evenly split tempo with no momentum. I think you will all find that this is much, much more difficult than it sounds when you force perfect form.

You will also find that you build a surprising amount of both muscle and strength this way if it is combined with the right nutrition at the right time.

You're saying this will be much more difficult than it sounds as opposed to what?

Joshua Naterman said:

You want repeat sprint performance without sacrificing power? You need 1-2m exertion periods of 100% VO2Max effort with 10 minutes of rest, repeated 5-6 times.

This isn't cardio right?

Look for an answer tomorrow, can't do it today.

Joshua Naterman said:

Look for an answer tomorrow, can't do it today.

Ok.

Ragnarok said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Guys, let's get one thing straight.

If you are doing "strength work" and you aren't taking 3-5 minutes of rest, you aren't doing strength work. You're doing work capacity work. That's one of the hallmarks of an accumulation cycle.

So doing supersets like in the poliquin article (exercise 1, 2min rest, exercise 2, 2 min rest, exercise 1, 2 min rest, repeat) is not strength work?

How long do you spend between sets of exercise 1? 4 minutes plus the time it takes to do exercise 2. Look familiar? That's strength work. This is simply a way to get more done in the same block of time.

Joshua Naterman said:

If your goal for a given workout is specifically to increase strength, you don't need more than 3 sets and each set needs to be lasting around 10-20s. For 5 reps, that's 2s down and 2s up at an evenly split tempo with no momentum. I think you will all find that this is much, much more difficult than it sounds when you force perfect form.

You will also find that you build a surprising amount of both muscle and strength this way if it is combined with the right nutrition at the right time.

You're saying this will be much more difficult than it sounds as opposed to what?

As opposed to not being hollow and using even small amounts of stretch reflex or momentum. This is just one example of a tempo. You should be able to perform 1-2 perfect reps with 5s down, 5s up for full ROM without losing form at all, AND you should be able to perform 3-5 reps with 2s down, 2s up and same form requirements. They are very different, but both are difficult and build a lot of muscle. Even small corrections make a big difference.

Joshua Naterman said:

You want repeat sprint performance without sacrificing power? You need 1-2m exertion periods of 100% VO2Max effort with 10 minutes of rest, repeated 5-6 times.

This isn't cardio right?

This is not cardio. This is specifically targeting aerobic enzymes. The aerobic system is what recharges your creatine system, which is your max power system. If you want maximum power for many repeated efforts you simply must have a highly efficient aerobic system. This means you have to push true 100% VO2 max effort, which is not the same thing as an all out sprint, for 60-120 seconds, and then give your body time to process all the lactate. Over time your VO2 max will increase, but what this does is specifically prepare your body to process anaerobic byproducts (lactate) quickly in real time during exercise. That's why 2 minutes is really what you need to shoot for.

VO2 max is the absolute fastest pace you can sustain for 2-5 minutes. Well trained athletes can stay at their VO2 max until they run out of sugar, which can be 20-30 minutes at true VO2 max, but for most of us that is not going to happen. We don't have enough aerobic enzymes.

The important thing to know is that each of these efforts is going to be very, very hard. You WILL want a recovery drink with you for your rest periods.